轉貼來源：亞洲周刊 二十五卷八期 (2011-02-27) 撰文：張翠容
http://www.yzzk.com/cfm/Content_Archive.cfm?Channel=ae&Path=3118114761/08ae4.cfm
埃及是現代伊斯蘭主義的發源地，也是很世俗化的國家。世俗化埃及精英擁護普世價值，著重個人生活品味，淡化宗教規條，這次革命首先由他們推動。歷史上他們與伊斯蘭主義者多次並肩作戰，現在再次攜手推翻獨裁。
有不少人關心埃及革命會否變成伊朗七九年伊斯蘭革命的翻版，甚至影響中東和平進程。這種擔憂並不出奇，因為過去十年以來，伊斯蘭激進主義已被描繪為世界上最大敵人，反恐是全球當務之急。然而，只要細心去看這次阿拉伯世界的震盪，根源在於三個字：不平等。埃及前總穆巴拉克就是以反恐之名，肆意剝奪人民的政治與經濟權利，但西方卻認為穆巴拉克路線有助穩定中東局勢。總之，穩定壓倒一切。諷剌的是，正是這種穩定論為社會埋下不穩定的因素。
原來，埃及是現代伊斯蘭主義的發源地，揮舞這面大旗的，就是美國標籤為極端伊斯蘭組織的穆斯林兄弟會。可是，在另方面，埃及給外界的印象卻又是一個非常世俗化的國家。在開羅，風情萬種的尼羅河兩岸泊著一艘又一艘張燈結綵的遊船，夜晚傳出節拍明快的音樂，身材豐滿的埃及女郎披上誘人輕紗，跳著奔放的肚皮舞，她要告訴世界，埃及的伊斯蘭文化是開明的。
位於開羅市中心解放廣場附近的美國大學(American University in Cairo，簡稱AUC)便是西方思想在阿拉伯地區的重要據點。儘管周圍環境混亂嘈雜，這所大學卻已成為開羅現代精神的座標，就讀的學生非富則貴，是培育埃及精英的搖籃。
精英與平民兩個世界
在埃及，精英階層畢竟屬少數。雖然世俗主義不但給予女性離婚的權利，也為她們打開了教育大門，但教育至今仍不普及，在埃及，不是很多人有機會完成中學教育，開羅這個大都會掩飾不了貧民窟的艱苦生活。事實上，只要走進開羅，便會很快感受到，有兩個世界並存著。在新城區，很小的一個區域，代表的是精英貴族階層。舊城區面積廣闊得多，也複雜得多，從充滿革命熱情的知識分子，到墨守伊斯蘭傳統的草根家庭都有。
舊城區裏有一個地方叫「伊斯蘭開羅」，矗立著一排排清真寺圓尖頂，一到頌禱時間，大批信徒在街頭上誠心跪拜，人山人海，景象壯觀。從中可以看到，信仰在埃及人心中，仍然佔有重要的位置。
不過，有一點值得留意的是，居住在新城區的埃及精英，有不少熱衷於推動埃及的現代化，擁護普世價值，著重個人生活品味，淡化宗教規條，靠向西方的人生指標。但在政治意識形態上，他們不一定支持穆巴拉克。我在開羅便認識好幾位畢業於AUC的年輕人，他們甚至認為穆巴拉克拖了埃及政治現代化的後腿，窒息埃及的發展。而埃及這次民主運動便首先由世俗化的年輕知識分子組織「四月六日運動」推動，吸引各階層人士參與，一呼百應，大家的訴求就在這一刻殊途同歸，當中自然包括穆斯林兄弟會。
回看歷史，我們不難發現，世俗知識分子與伊斯蘭主義者在反殖和爭取獨立上曾多次並肩作戰。歷史再次重複，這次他們站在同一道路上，推翻獨裁政權，但之後又怎樣呢？
開羅，這個遊客至愛的文化歷史名城，在古國裏如「夜明珠」照亮了尼羅河流域，滔滔河水孕育了人類最古老的文明之一，也見證了世界上最漫長的不同殖民統治。
在十九世紀末二十世紀初，奧斯曼帝國的黑暗統治激發起阿拉伯民族主義思潮。第一次世界大戰後，英國殖民者上台，完全控制了埃及，這進一步激發起埃及人的民族主義。此時，有年輕學者阿班納振臂一呼：重現《古蘭經》的聖訓，才是拯救民族的方法！他遂掀起了阿拉伯世界第一波現代伊斯蘭主義運動，並創立了在伊斯蘭世界影響至深的穆斯林兄弟會。
三、四十年代，英國扶植埃及法魯克國王，該政權腐敗無能，其軍隊更是荒淫無度，激起民憤，穆斯林兄弟會在「自由軍官集團」的協助下，秘密組織軍事力量，推翻法魯克。「自由軍官集團」是世俗化民族主義運動的火車頭，在抵抗外國侵略、推翻封建王朝的抗爭道路上，該集團的領導人納賽爾與阿班納惺惺相惜，成為最佳戰友。納賽爾建立埃及共和國後，走親蘇聯社會主義道路，逐漸對穆斯林兄弟會步步為營，甚至到後期更對兄弟會大力打壓。至於接替納賽爾的薩達特，他與兄弟會也曾有過一段淵源。他年輕時深受阿班納演說吸引，是第一個將阿班納介紹到軍營上宣揚兄弟會信念的自由軍官集團成員。他執政後，利用兄弟會打擊納賽爾餘黨，兄弟會借機再度活躍，後來又遭打壓。
納賽爾在位期間，於一九六七年的中東戰爭慘敗給以色列，社會上因此普遍瀰漫著挫敗感，這令到兄弟會即使轉到地下活動仍然大有市場。
到了薩達特，他在一九七三年突襲以色列，取回失地，贏得聲望，但由於後來靠向西方資本主義的施政失誤，貧富越見懸殊，加上他漸漸向美國靠攏，並與以色列簽署和約，雖然他理據感人，更因此贏得諾貝爾和平獎，但民間卻認為和約不平等，遂產生了一股怨氣，兄弟會因而迅速吸納了不少中下階層的成員，並擴及知識階層。最後薩達特死於狂熱伊斯蘭主義者的暗殺。
薩達特死後，其副手穆巴拉克正式展開他長達三十年的鐵腕統治，而且更向美以利益傾斜，埃及人感到對阿拉伯兄弟不公，可是他們在國內政策和外交政策上都失去了聲音，完全沒有發言權。這令到埃及人對穆氏非常反感，而且使埃及社會的仇美仇以情緒更為高漲。
我零二年第一次到埃及採訪時，正好碰上以色列軍圍困巴勒斯坦自治區，硝煙高漲。我約一位埃及年輕記者到美國大學對面的麥當勞吃早餐，他立即提出抗議，說﹕埃及人都認為買了一個漢堡就等於殺掉一位巴勒斯坦弟兄！這種看法在開羅十分普遍，開羅人相信美國企業與美國政府朋黨為奸，提供以色列最先進武器殺害巴勒斯坦人。
當年，一位埃及洗衣店老板唱了一首歌《我恨以色列》，便立即紅透半邊天，其後當上職業歌星，成為埃及的一個傳奇。不過，這個歌星也一度淪為階下囚，關了好幾個月才釋放。除了歌星外，政府亦大舉鎮壓異見分子和伊斯蘭組織成員，草木皆兵。事實上，自一九六七年六日戰爭後，當時埃及政府以反恐名義推行緊急法，社會上立刻出現很多隱藏的耳朵與眼睛，埃及人直指自己國家是個「警察國家」。
可是，在新一輪的「反恐法」下，人民的政治權利進一步受到剝奪。另方面，經歷過大半世紀的鬥爭，兄弟會漸露疲乏，力主求和，主張走議會道路，用和平手段爭取權力。即使曾經倡議暴力主義的伊斯蘭集團，也表示願意解除武裝。
由此觀之，這次埃及革命之火，西方評論把焦點放在埃及伊斯蘭組織身上，誇大其奪權能力，對不少追求民主的埃及年輕人來說，是有欠公允的。即使穆巴拉克把伊斯蘭組織打壓了，但仍難掩飾他在經濟上所造就的不平等，而他的獨裁腐敗亦令其政府缺少推動國家財富再分配，從而改變不平等現狀的政策空間。
近年穆巴拉克拼GDP，高利潤產業受惠，埃及經濟增長大步向前。這數年間外資湧入埃及的投資額佔非洲第一名，股市也翻了幾倍，可是，老百姓卻無法分享這經濟成果，反之失業貧窮越益嚴重。
百姓享受不到經濟成果
從開羅市中心坐車到金字塔地區只需半小時，有時真不敢相信，半小時之內便穿梭於兩個截然不同的世界，沿路不少貧民窟在眼前湧現。在金字塔坐落的沙漠地區，人民居住在古老的房子裏，駱駝與馬匹是他們經濟的支柱。原本孕育萬物的尼羅河三角洲，他們感到得不到什麼好處。
馬兒的嘶叫聲、駱駝蹄聲，迴盪在歷史長廊裏，沙漠的滾滾黃沙捲起人們對這個埃及古老文明的懷念，我隱隱嗅到木乃伊身上的香料。但對埃及人而言，他們有說不出的憤怒，為信仰、為政治、為經濟，即使為個人前途，他們似乎總徘徊在十字路口上。
終於他們站起來，為過去所受的種種不平等待遇。現在，革命取得初步的成功了，新的社會契約又將會是怎樣一副模樣？無論如何，從埃及的民主運動，可以看到，越是採取高壓手段，越是向一方利益傾斜，便越難令穩定扎根。只有平等的對話，大家有機會共同創造較為公平公義的社會，和平才會降臨。這對一直受美以利益主導的中東和平進程，也不無啟示。
2011年2月28日 星期一
2011年2月26日 星期六
薩依德的流亡者之書：最後一片天空消失之後的巴勒斯坦 After the Last Sky
書名： 薩依德的流亡者之書
最後一片天空消失之後的巴勒斯坦
原文： After the Last Sky / Palestinian Lives
作者： 愛德華．薩依德 (Edward W. Said)
攝影： 摩爾 (Jean Mohr)
譯者： 梁永安
出版： 立緒
出版日期： 2010年5月10日
世界向我們關閉，強迫我們通過最後一道門
我們必需扯斷自己的肢體才能通過‧‧‧
身在最後的邊界之外，我們還能到哪裡去？
已經飛出了最後的天空，鳥兒還能何往？
──── Mahmoud Darweesh 寫於巴勒斯坦解放組織被逐出黎巴嫩之後
1947年薩依德一家人離開巴勒斯坦土地，經埃及、貝魯特最後落腳在美國定居。1986年，薩依德與摩爾(Jean Mohr)合作出版此書，當時巴勒斯坦在猶太復國主義、美國、聯合國和阿拉伯國家的多方利益夾縫中掙扎求生，一再地在世界舞台上被消音抹形、犧牲利用，這些錯綜複雜的糾葛簡化出巴勒斯坦人『難民』和『恐怖份子』的兩極形象。摩爾數度在巴勒斯坦從事人道救援工作，他的攝影試圖呈現當時當地的實況和處境，令人遺憾的是這些作品一無例外地被孤立隔離在學術界的脈絡裡。
薩依德個人直到1992年才得與家人第一次回到離開45年的家鄉，在違法蔓生的以色列屯墾區碎縫中，他看到巴勒斯坦人展現出一個民族的主體性與歷史意識。巴勒斯坦或許缺乏成文歷史書寫民族的存在，但他們的文化DNA在巴勒斯坦土地上無處不在。
帝國主義在亞洲、中東、非洲刻意地留下一個又一個難解的土地和族群紛爭，阿拉伯民族主義和和巴勒斯坦民族主義的拉扯漣漪激起更多極端的現象─伊斯蘭基本教義派、基督教馬龍派、猶太狂熱主義，阿拉伯石油國家的暴富與貧富差距破壞了中東地區的平衡，一次次的政治戰爭事件─黎巴嫩內戰、埃及沙達特承認以色列、大衛營協定、伊朗革命、兩伊戰爭、以色列入侵黎巴嫩、Sabra和Shatila難民營屠殺事件、巴解組織的分裂，摧毀了阿拉伯中心貝魯特也製造出一波波流徙各地的巴勒斯坦難民，境內和境外。
境內，巴勒斯坦的土地和民族被有組織地碎化和隔離終至停滯退化乃至逐漸消失凋零，境外，巴勒斯坦人在成為所在國永遠的邊緣人的同時，悄然揮去他們的識別認同，境內境外的巴勒斯坦人彼此異化互不信任。
占領區內，以色列勞工集中在高技術階層，巴勒斯坦勞工則集中在勞力密集的低所得階層，他們的工資由猶太總工會決定且相較偏低。他們不是每日花費大量時間排隊通過檢查哨上工，就是被猶太僱主鎖禁過夜以節省通勤費用，他們不得不前往猶太人居住區尋找工作機會，在自己的國家裡成為遷徙和臨時勞工。以色列人強佔土地、拆毀房屋、砍伐世代賴以維生的橄欖樹、建立屯墾區、樹立高牆、建立無止境的刺網和檢查哨，甚至企圖離間族群，巴勒斯坦人卻以一種驚人不可思議的頑固留守在舊家園。
薩依德兒時記憶中的甜美柑橘和茄子，如今在以色列出口品牌的精緻包裝下，出現在倫敦或巴黎的街頭市場，提醒他記憶與現實的斷裂。耶路撒冷街景中的事物細節如斯熟悉卻又感覺遙遙，觀光客遠比薩依德更容易接近這個被細心規劃隔離的城市。母親曾經居住的兩個城市，拿撒勒與貝魯特，薩依德都被禁止入境，猶如以一個outsider的身份從外城的猶太社區眺望內城的阿拉伯社區那般不可及。
為了否定一個國家民族的存在，在紐約雜誌這樣的美國主流媒體會公然出現『恐怖份子服裝』這樣的標題，污名化巴勒斯坦婦女的尋常衣著。巴勒斯坦人何等需要足夠的文本去修復他們的文化和歷史過往，以對抗以色列人龐大資源所堆砌製造的公關戰爭。一直以來，美國對以色列明目張膽的偏袒和支援，讓巴勒斯坦問題再再成為不可解的難題，美國的勢力毫不遲疑地凌駕在聯合國和國際法庭之上。
薩依德的母親在1932年結婚時，即刻在託管政府的登記處完成婚姻註冊手續，一個英國官員立即取消了她的個人護照，理由是藉此增加一個法定名額給歐洲猶太人移民入境，而她從此必需用她的丈夫的護照旅行，這就是她被剝奪公民權利的經歷。這個剝奪讓她終其一生難堪羞辱地面對每一個國家機場海關的文件審查。
巴勒斯坦難民的貧困成為所在國的負擔而專業精英卻又成為一種威脅，以致於他們自然形成一個新階級，說話咄咄逼人卻又缺乏自信的新布爾喬亞。阿拉法特將這兩個族群建立連結，成功地在世界舞台上推廣巴勒斯坦民族的形象和觀念，但他對以色列的承認和妥協讓步也成為巴勒斯坦人永遠的爭議。巴勒斯坦人註定無法凝聚？註定一再地辛苦建立美麗家園又一再地拋棄所有嗎？
摩爾 (Jean Mohr)的照片精準地表述巴勒斯坦斯土斯民年華老去的嚴酷過程，從快樂的童年，到無盡可能的少年，再到飽受困頓的成年，然後是歷經滄桑的受害者象徵，巴勒斯坦人從不曾被如此理解。薩依德期許的是巴勒斯坦人與自己民族的歷史合而為一，以飽經歷練的民族而非悲情的受迫害者自居，他們的歷練包含所有的民族鬥爭和失敗以及由此而生的新的能量。
把我當作傾倒莊園的一件遺物帶著
把我當作悲劇裡的詩句帶著
把我當作玩具，當作房屋的一塊磚頭帶著
好使我們的後代記得回歸
──── Mahmoud Darweesh
2011年2月25日 星期五
埃及的運動─對話薩米爾．阿敏Samir Amin
轉貼來源：台灣立報 2011-2-24
http://www.lihpao.com/?action-viewnews-itemid-104716
■汪暉、劉健芝
說明
2011年2月9日至13日，世界社會論壇（World Social Forum）在塞內加爾首都達卡舉行。
這也正是埃及社會運動如火如荼之際。我們也就此與出身埃及的著名理論家和社會運動的組織者薩米爾．阿敏和其他埃及知識份子進行了多次交談和討論。這裡發表的文字是根據與阿敏先生的兩次談話記錄整理而成。
時間：2011年2月9日到13日
地點：「世界社會論壇」，塞內加爾達卡大學。
與談人：
阿敏：埃及人，依附理論的最重要理論家之一，長期致力於第三世界的社會運動，是「第三世界論壇」（Third World Forum）和「另類實踐世界論壇」（World Forum for Alternatives）的創始人和主席。
汪暉：清華大學人文學院教授，人文與社會科學研究所所長。
劉健芝：香港嶺南大學副教授，長期從事亞洲和第三世界的社會運動，是「另類實踐世界論壇」的副主席，與阿敏和鄔達（François Houtart）主編《抵抗的全球化》上、下冊，人民文學出版社出版。
群眾運動的成分與戰略
汪暉：薩米爾，謝謝您昨天給我的關於埃及運動的提綱。我們都非常關心埃及正在發生的事情。現在許多地區的媒體將突尼斯、埃及發生的運動與先前的中亞顏色革命相提並論，但這種說法混淆了這些運動之間的重要差別。我直觀的印象是：這是一場不同於1989年蘇東解體以來的那些親西方的、肯定資本主義體制的顏色革命的革命。當前的這場大規模民主運動不可避免地包含著對於美國全球霸權的抗議。
在那篇提綱的開頭，您指出埃及是美國控制全球的計畫的一塊基石，正由於此，美國不會容忍埃及的任何越出其全球戰略的行動，這個行動也是以色列對巴勒斯坦實行殖民統治所需要的。這也是美國要求穆巴拉克立即實行和平過渡的唯一目的。他們希望穆巴拉克任命的情報頭子蘇雷曼（Omar Souleiman）來接任，以維繫這一全球戰略的基石。您能否談談你對運動本身的看法？
阿敏：我的短文談的是對立方，即美國和埃及統治階級的戰略。很多人不瞭解這個情況。現在我想談一下群眾運動的成分與戰略。
反對力量有四個組成部分。第一，是年輕人。他們政治化，有很強的組織能力，組織動員的數目超過百萬人，這絕對不是個小數目。他們反對現有的社會與經濟制度，至於是否反對資本主義，對他們來說可能太概念化了，但是他們反對的是社會的非正義和不平等。
他們的民族主義是愛國的，是反帝國主義的。他們痛恨埃及向美國霸權屈服，因此他們也反對所謂的與以色列的和平協議，拒絕容忍以色列繼續實行對巴勒斯坦的殖民主義佔領。他們追求民主，完全反對軍隊和員警的獨裁。
他們有分散的領導班子。當他們給出示威的指令時，能動員百萬人，但是幾個小時之內，全國就有1千5百萬人回應，連小鎮和村落都動員起來。他們在全國範圍內可以即時引起強大的正面迴響。
第二個組成部分是激進左派，來自共產主義的傳統。年輕人並不反對共產黨人，但是他們不想被置於有領袖和指揮的政黨的框架裡。他們與共產黨人的關係不錯，完全沒有問題。幸虧有大規模的示威，兩者走在一起，不是誰領導誰，而是互相的配合。
資產階級民主派與穆斯林兄弟會
汪暉：也就是說，無論是青年運動還是左翼共產主義者，他們對現政權的批判、他們對民主的訴求，不僅包含著對美國霸權的抵抗，也包含著對於現行的社會、政治和經濟制度的批判。在傳統左翼與青年運動之間有著相近的傾向，不同的地方在於運動的形態，即當代運動並不希望將自身組織在政黨等高度組織化的框架內。這從運動拒絕各種組織試圖代表他們的努力中也可以看到。那麼，巴拉迪（Mohamed El Baradei）代表著怎樣的力量？
阿敏：他代表的是運動的第三個組成部分，即資產階級民主派。現制度是那麼充滿員警與黑社會的暴力，不少中產階級，包括小商人，不斷被欺淩。他們不屬於左派，他們接受資本主義、市場與商業，甚至並不完全反美；他們不擁護以色列，但是接受以色列的存在。然而，他們也是民主派，反對軍隊、員警和黑社會的權力集中。
巴拉迪是典型的資產階級民主派，信奉「真正的選舉」和尊重法制。他完全不懂經濟制度的問題，只知道正在運行的市場，卻不理解這正是社會崩潰的根源。他也不知道什麼是社會主義，可他是民主派。他在國外比在埃及更有名，但也可能快速地改變這一局面，成為轉軌過程的一個參與者。問題是，如果軍隊和情報機構不放棄對於社會的高壓統治，巴拉迪是否接受？
汪暉：巴拉迪要求的是通常所說的政治民主，而對這種政治民主到底與怎樣的社會形式相配合，他沒有看法，因為他基本接受現行的資本主義體制。在伊拉克戰爭前夕，圍繞大規模殺傷性武器的核查問題，他曾經與美國有矛盾，但並沒有另類的思想。那麼，「穆斯林兄弟會」的態度怎樣？西方媒體非常重視他們。
阿敏：穆斯林兄弟會是第四個組成部分。儘管他們在公開的政治領域有群眾的支持，但他們是極端反動的。他們不僅是宗教意識形態，而且在社會傾向上是反動的。他們公開反對工人的罷工，明確站在政權一邊。他們認為工人應該接受現行的市場。
他們也採取反對農民運動的立場。埃及有強大的中農運動，他們受到市場和富農的侵害，他們要為保留他們的財產而鬥爭。穆斯林兄弟會的立場是反對中農的，說土地所有權是私有權，說可蘭經支持市場是神聖的。
穆斯林兄弟會事實上是與政權合謀的。表面上，政權與穆斯林兄弟會是矛盾鬥爭的，但事實上他們是聯合的。國家政權給了穆斯林兄弟會三個主要的體系：教育、司法、國家電視廣播。這些都是極為重要的國家機構。通過教育，他們先是迫使學校的女孩然後是全社會戴上頭巾；通過司法，他們引入了穆斯林的律令；通過傳媒，他們影響著輿論。
穆斯林兄弟會的領導層從來是腐敗的、非常富有的政治領導層，他們一直接受沙烏地阿拉伯的金錢資助，也就是說美國的資助。他們在兩個社會階層中有重大影響，其一是親資本主義、反共產主義、害怕民眾的中產階級，這些人認為穆斯林的統治不是壞事。中產階層自發地支持穆斯林兄弟會。他們在教師、醫生、律師等專業階層中有非常大的影響力。
同時，穆斯林兄弟會從流氓階層招收他們的雇傭民兵。埃及有大規模的貧困人口，在開羅，1千5百萬人口裡面有5百萬極貧人口。穆斯林兄弟會在其中政治意識很低的窮人中找到他們能夠動員的民兵隊伍。
如果運動「成功」，「選舉」進行，穆斯林兄弟會將成為議會的主要力量。美國對此是歡迎的，並認為他們是「溫和的」。其實不過是易於駕馭而已，他們可以接受美國的戰略，讓以色列繼續佔領巴勒斯坦。穆斯林兄弟會完全認同現行的「市場」體制，對外是依附的。他們事實上是統治階級中「買辦」的同夥。
群眾要推翻的是整個制度
汪暉：穆斯林兄弟會代表著宗教性的政治力量，但按照您的分析，這種宗教性的政治力量並沒有提供關於社會和經濟體制的另類選擇，恰恰相反，宗教的政治化與市場體制的鞏固之間並沒有衝突關係。上述4個方面各有不同的取向、特徵和背景，那這幾個運動是如何走到一起的？
阿敏：事情是這樣發生的：運動由年輕人發起，激進左派立即加入，第二天資產階級民主派加入。穆斯林兄弟會在頭4天是抵制這個群眾運動的，因為他們以為員警會很快鎮壓平亂；當他們看到運動並沒有被壓下去的時候，領導層覺得不能留在外面，才參加進去。大家必須知道這個事實。
汪暉：讓我們再談談美國的戰略。您在短文中曾經提到，美國對埃及的戰略與巴基斯坦模式非常相似，就是「政治的伊斯蘭」與軍事情報系統的結合。如果再加上一句，就是全球化的資本主義市場體制。這樣一種體制能夠產生出民主嗎？
阿敏：群眾要推翻的是整個制度，不僅是穆巴拉克，但穆巴拉克是制度的象徵。穆巴拉克任命蘇雷曼為副總統之後，不到幾個小時，群眾喊的口號是：「不要穆巴拉克，不要蘇雷曼，他們兩個都是美國人。」
歐巴馬說我們需要軟過渡，就像菲律賓當年那樣。群眾說，我們要推翻的不是一個罪犯，而是所有罪犯，我們要的是真正的過渡，不要假的。群眾的政治意識很高。可是，美國的目的是軟過渡，怎麼做？就是公開地與右派、中間派、穆斯林兄弟會以至部分資產階級民主派協商，同時孤立年輕人和左派，這就是他們的戰略。
不論他們是否達成正式的協定，穆巴拉克是要出局的。副總統蘇雷曼發起所謂的協商邀請，穆斯林兄弟會很聰明，拒絕了邀請，但是他們原則上是接受與制度協商的。
美國的目的並不是民主
汪暉：但目前運動的主要力量是青年運動和更為廣泛的社會運動。工人罷工了，那是傳統左翼長期活動的區域。那麼，面對美國和埃及統治階層的這種所謂「軟過渡」策略，群眾如何反應？
阿敏：群眾運動的大會每天都在討論真正的過渡的規則：
第一：立即解散假民主的議會；
第二：立即取消戒嚴令，容許自由的集會權；
第三：開始制訂新憲法；
第四：選舉立憲議會；
第五：不要立即或者很快的選舉，而是容許一段長的自由時期。如果是立即選舉，很多人會投票給穆斯林兄弟會，因為他們有組織力、有傳媒等等。可是，如果有一年的真正自由，那麼，左派和年輕人便可以自我組織。
這是一場漫長鬥爭的開端。埃及是革命長期進行的地方。1920年到1952年的長革命時期，有進有退。長遠來說，左派和年輕人占了多數，有行動能力。可是，一個可能的壞前景是，穆斯林兄弟會和政權會用力打擊左派和年輕人，政權已經這樣做了。這個制度是非常惡毒的。在示威期間，政權打開了監獄，釋放了1萬7千名罪犯，給他們支持穆巴拉克的徽章、武器、金錢，並保證他們不會重返監獄，讓他們去襲擊示威者。示威的群眾並沒有衝擊監獄，是員警把他們釋放的。
汪暉：社會運動提出的口號之一，是要求建立一個文職政府（civil government），即這個政府既不能是軍人的政府，也不能是宗教政府。這也正是「civil」這一語詞的真正含義。
從策略上說，運動需要一定的準備時期，在廣泛動員和參與的基礎上，形成自身的綱領和代表人物，以便直接介入大規模運動之後的政治進程。
穆巴拉克的員警專制，使得埃及社會缺乏政治空間，除了轉入地下的共產黨和穆斯林兄弟會之外，社會處於一種「去政治化」的狀態。現在的任務是「重新政治化」，也正處於「重新政治化」的過程之中。
「去政治化」既是穆巴拉克體制垮台的原因，也是今天社會運動面臨的困難。如果「軟過渡」策略部分奏效，即穆巴拉克下台，由軍方和員警力量支撐，群眾運動能否持續並形成更為清晰的目標，就成了一個最重要的挑戰。
您認為年輕人是支持左派的，但可能右派和穆斯林兄弟會也會試圖分化年輕人。最重要的是年輕人和民主派不支持美國。民主派會怎樣，他們能夠提出什麼目標嗎？
阿敏：很多民主派是中立的，並不反美。巴拉迪很天真，以為美國支持民主。我們不斷強調的是，美國的目的並不是民主。
■埃及軍方高層將領在電視上發表完致詞後，開羅解放廣場上的群眾高聲歡呼慶祝，圖攝於2月10日。（圖文／路透）
農民在運動中的角色
劉健芝：傳統左派運動與工人之間有密切關係。工人起了什麼作用？
阿敏：3年前，一個罷工浪潮橫掃埃及，那是50年以來非洲大陸（包括南非）最強大的工人運動。從納塞時期開始，官方的工會完全被國家政權控制，就像蘇聯的國家控制工會的模式。因此，罷工不是由工會領導層發動的，而是由基層發起的。在這個意義上，罷工是自發的，取得了重大的勝利。
3年前，政權就想調動員警鎮壓，但是資方覺得不行，怕把工廠都毀了。於是他們進行協商，罷工工人贏得的工資增長並不多，只有10％或5％，連通貨膨脹吃掉的都追不上，可是，他們贏得了很重要的成果，就是尊嚴和工會權利，譬如說，解雇工人要有工會認可。他們接著成立了新的獨立工會，這次也參加了運動。
劉健芝：農民在運動中的角色如何？
阿敏：相對而言，農民運動很難串聯。農民運動從1920年以來一直很激進，他們要反對的既有大地主，也有富農。富農在農村社會裡勢力很強，他們不像地主那樣不在地生活，他們跟政府、律師、醫生都有密切的關係。另外的是中農、貧農、赤貧農和無地農民。
無地農民的狀況在過去30年並沒有惡化，因為他們出去海灣國家打工，賺了一點小錢，回來不夠買地，但夠他們在灰色經濟裡面做些小生意。赤貧的農民最受剝奪，因為新自由主義的市場讓他們任由富農、新資產階級地主和現代的埃及農業企業剝奪。赤貧農民最為激進，並不反對共產主義者，但是他們不知道什麼是共產主義。他們就是不知道。
汪暉：傳統左翼和共產主義運動在工人中影響很大。但對於農民，埃及的共產主義者的影響如何？
阿敏：共產主義者的不足，是一直沒有去團結農民。然則，唯一去跟他們討論的只有共產主義者，沒有穆斯林兄弟會，沒有資產階級民主派。可是，雖然沒有人刻意團結農民，他們卻繼續進行他們的鬥爭。
汪暉：在廣大的第三世界國家，農民的動員和角色始終是重要的一環。農民有沒有參加近期的動員？
阿敏：農民在農村有動員，但是沒有跟大運動連接。他們沒有參與討論過渡的民眾大會。
汪暉：運動是否主要是城市的？
阿敏：主要在城市，小城鎮也有。
反抗資本全球化的性質
汪暉：埃及的運動帶有強烈的自發性，不同的力量突然地加入到這場聲勢浩大的運動之中。這個運動與20世紀以政黨政治為動員機制的大眾運動十分不同，也不同於單純的階級運動，儘管工人階級和傳統左翼也是這場運動的重要的參與者。運動開始之後，許多政治組織和機會主義者試圖代表運動出來與政府談判，但大眾運動拒絕他們的代表性。您怎麼解釋運動的自發性？
阿敏：民眾對現制度、對員警都極為厭倦了。如果你只因很小的問題（例如闖紅燈）被逮捕，你會被毒打，被折磨。員警施加日常的鎮壓欺淩，完全無法無天，醜惡無比。民眾也厭倦了黑社會制度。世界銀行所說的代表未來的銀行家，是強盜流氓。他們怎麼累積財富的？是通過國家無償給他們土地，他們轉賣給地產商。這是巧取豪奪來累積的財富。他們把真正的企業家擠壓走了。
民眾也厭倦了美國的霸權。埃及人是民族主義愛國者。我們會問：我們怎麼可能這麼卑微，每天每個事情都由美國領事和美國總統來獨裁決定？另外，還有社會的衰敗，大多數人面對的是不斷惡化的失業和貧苦，社會不平等極為嚴重。所有這些加起來的不滿，讓政府徹底失去合法性。民眾說，夠了！忽然就爆炸了。有人因此犧牲了，但是他們知道，如果你參加鬥爭，你是可能犧牲的。
劉健芝：民眾的厭倦是長期的厭倦，忽然就爆炸，來自兩個當前的危機，一是高物價，二是高等教育青年的高失業率。民眾運動怎麼解決這兩個問題？
阿敏：這些問題都是資本主義危機造成的，因此，這次運動才帶有反抗資本主義全球化的性質。這正是要從根本上去解決危機問題。只要這場大眾的民主運動能夠獲得成功，民眾就會推進真正的社會經濟進步，化解這些危機。
汪暉：沙達特在美國支持下與以色列單獨媾和。過去30年，阿拉伯世界是分裂的。埃及作為阿拉伯世界的領頭羊，對於阿拉伯世界有過重大影響。儘管穆巴拉克在巴勒斯坦和以色列的和談中扮演特殊角色，但埃及的國際影響，尤其是在阿拉伯世界中的影響，實際上下降了。
昨天跟一位埃及朋友聊天，他對目前運動感到興奮──世界終於重新認識到埃及是一個多麼重要的國家！阿拉伯世界的格局十分複雜和微妙，其中最有影響的國家是那些親美的、接受現行資本主義體制的專制國家。那麼，埃及這場運動對阿拉伯世界的團結、對於阿拉伯世界內部的社會運動會有什麼影響？
阿敏：會引起迴響，但每個國家是不同的。突尼斯國家小，教育水準和生活水準都比較高，但是因為它小，在全球經濟裡面，它很脆弱。
汪暉：好像突尼斯的民眾組織更好，埃及群眾更為自發。對巴勒斯坦肯定會有影響吧？
阿敏：肯定是的。對敘利亞也有衝擊，那兒的情況很複雜。我們很難知道對伊拉克的影響是怎麼樣。南葉門是民族主義、民粹主義左派，帶有馬克思主義的修辭，有某種激進左派的思想。但它也像南北朝鮮，北方落後南方發達。葉門有可能再分裂，因為南方不能接受統一。
■人民聽到穆巴拉克下台時，熱淚盈眶。（圖╱Islam El Azzazi攝影團隊提供）
群眾大會尋找新憲法理念
（以下是2月13日穆巴拉克下台後通過電話所做的補充訪談）
劉健芝：穆巴拉克下台了，您對最新的發展有什麼評論？
阿敏：首先，穆巴拉克沒有辭職，他是給武裝部隊最高委員會的政變趕走的。他跟他的副總統蘇雷曼都被趕走了。新的軍隊領導層聲稱它會執政，一直到新選舉舉行之後，然後，軍隊會返回軍營。軍隊說在這個期間，它會處理過渡。
但是，群眾運動大會繼續工作，第一，推進新民主，要求所有公民的自由權利，例如集社自由、傳媒權利等等。第二，群眾運動大會將尋找新憲法的理念，俾使選舉的是立憲議會而不是立法議會，儘管政府想做的是部分修改現行憲法。
現在要知道新政府會怎麼樣處理情況，還言之尚早。再多等幾天，情況就會明朗。群眾運動還沒有完成它的工作。軍隊領導層希望有一個強過渡，推進選舉，穆斯林兄弟會將會取得多數。我們希望選舉前有一個緩過渡，以讓新的政治、民主力量可以組織起來，可以發展它們的綱領和工作，並能跟社會公眾有交流。
汪暉：這也許是這場運動能否成為一場真正的革命的關鍵。廣泛的社會運動只有通過大會的形式才能形成自己的綱領和領導層，參與制憲過程，而現成的形式民主框架，很可能導致在前政權下已經存在的組織，如穆斯林兄弟會或軍方推薦的人物，佔據議會和權力的中心──事實上，穆巴拉克政權也有某種民主形式，但它的代議制和選舉制不具有代表性，而是專斷的政治形式。一個通過大眾民主而產生的真正的civil government能否成型，是未來埃及政治走向的關鍵。這對今天埃及青年運動、工人運動和進步組織是一個真正的挑戰。
（本文經汪暉與劉健芝校正，並全文交由《新國際》發表）
http://www.lihpao.com/?action-viewnews-itemid-104716
■汪暉、劉健芝
說明
2011年2月9日至13日，世界社會論壇（World Social Forum）在塞內加爾首都達卡舉行。
這也正是埃及社會運動如火如荼之際。我們也就此與出身埃及的著名理論家和社會運動的組織者薩米爾．阿敏和其他埃及知識份子進行了多次交談和討論。這裡發表的文字是根據與阿敏先生的兩次談話記錄整理而成。
時間：2011年2月9日到13日
地點：「世界社會論壇」，塞內加爾達卡大學。
與談人：
阿敏：埃及人，依附理論的最重要理論家之一，長期致力於第三世界的社會運動，是「第三世界論壇」（Third World Forum）和「另類實踐世界論壇」（World Forum for Alternatives）的創始人和主席。
汪暉：清華大學人文學院教授，人文與社會科學研究所所長。
劉健芝：香港嶺南大學副教授，長期從事亞洲和第三世界的社會運動，是「另類實踐世界論壇」的副主席，與阿敏和鄔達（François Houtart）主編《抵抗的全球化》上、下冊，人民文學出版社出版。
群眾運動的成分與戰略
汪暉：薩米爾，謝謝您昨天給我的關於埃及運動的提綱。我們都非常關心埃及正在發生的事情。現在許多地區的媒體將突尼斯、埃及發生的運動與先前的中亞顏色革命相提並論，但這種說法混淆了這些運動之間的重要差別。我直觀的印象是：這是一場不同於1989年蘇東解體以來的那些親西方的、肯定資本主義體制的顏色革命的革命。當前的這場大規模民主運動不可避免地包含著對於美國全球霸權的抗議。
在那篇提綱的開頭，您指出埃及是美國控制全球的計畫的一塊基石，正由於此，美國不會容忍埃及的任何越出其全球戰略的行動，這個行動也是以色列對巴勒斯坦實行殖民統治所需要的。這也是美國要求穆巴拉克立即實行和平過渡的唯一目的。他們希望穆巴拉克任命的情報頭子蘇雷曼（Omar Souleiman）來接任，以維繫這一全球戰略的基石。您能否談談你對運動本身的看法？
阿敏：我的短文談的是對立方，即美國和埃及統治階級的戰略。很多人不瞭解這個情況。現在我想談一下群眾運動的成分與戰略。
反對力量有四個組成部分。第一，是年輕人。他們政治化，有很強的組織能力，組織動員的數目超過百萬人，這絕對不是個小數目。他們反對現有的社會與經濟制度，至於是否反對資本主義，對他們來說可能太概念化了，但是他們反對的是社會的非正義和不平等。
他們的民族主義是愛國的，是反帝國主義的。他們痛恨埃及向美國霸權屈服，因此他們也反對所謂的與以色列的和平協議，拒絕容忍以色列繼續實行對巴勒斯坦的殖民主義佔領。他們追求民主，完全反對軍隊和員警的獨裁。
他們有分散的領導班子。當他們給出示威的指令時，能動員百萬人，但是幾個小時之內，全國就有1千5百萬人回應，連小鎮和村落都動員起來。他們在全國範圍內可以即時引起強大的正面迴響。
第二個組成部分是激進左派，來自共產主義的傳統。年輕人並不反對共產黨人，但是他們不想被置於有領袖和指揮的政黨的框架裡。他們與共產黨人的關係不錯，完全沒有問題。幸虧有大規模的示威，兩者走在一起，不是誰領導誰，而是互相的配合。
資產階級民主派與穆斯林兄弟會
汪暉：也就是說，無論是青年運動還是左翼共產主義者，他們對現政權的批判、他們對民主的訴求，不僅包含著對美國霸權的抵抗，也包含著對於現行的社會、政治和經濟制度的批判。在傳統左翼與青年運動之間有著相近的傾向，不同的地方在於運動的形態，即當代運動並不希望將自身組織在政黨等高度組織化的框架內。這從運動拒絕各種組織試圖代表他們的努力中也可以看到。那麼，巴拉迪（Mohamed El Baradei）代表著怎樣的力量？
阿敏：他代表的是運動的第三個組成部分，即資產階級民主派。現制度是那麼充滿員警與黑社會的暴力，不少中產階級，包括小商人，不斷被欺淩。他們不屬於左派，他們接受資本主義、市場與商業，甚至並不完全反美；他們不擁護以色列，但是接受以色列的存在。然而，他們也是民主派，反對軍隊、員警和黑社會的權力集中。
巴拉迪是典型的資產階級民主派，信奉「真正的選舉」和尊重法制。他完全不懂經濟制度的問題，只知道正在運行的市場，卻不理解這正是社會崩潰的根源。他也不知道什麼是社會主義，可他是民主派。他在國外比在埃及更有名，但也可能快速地改變這一局面，成為轉軌過程的一個參與者。問題是，如果軍隊和情報機構不放棄對於社會的高壓統治，巴拉迪是否接受？
汪暉：巴拉迪要求的是通常所說的政治民主，而對這種政治民主到底與怎樣的社會形式相配合，他沒有看法，因為他基本接受現行的資本主義體制。在伊拉克戰爭前夕，圍繞大規模殺傷性武器的核查問題，他曾經與美國有矛盾，但並沒有另類的思想。那麼，「穆斯林兄弟會」的態度怎樣？西方媒體非常重視他們。
阿敏：穆斯林兄弟會是第四個組成部分。儘管他們在公開的政治領域有群眾的支持，但他們是極端反動的。他們不僅是宗教意識形態，而且在社會傾向上是反動的。他們公開反對工人的罷工，明確站在政權一邊。他們認為工人應該接受現行的市場。
他們也採取反對農民運動的立場。埃及有強大的中農運動，他們受到市場和富農的侵害，他們要為保留他們的財產而鬥爭。穆斯林兄弟會的立場是反對中農的，說土地所有權是私有權，說可蘭經支持市場是神聖的。
穆斯林兄弟會事實上是與政權合謀的。表面上，政權與穆斯林兄弟會是矛盾鬥爭的，但事實上他們是聯合的。國家政權給了穆斯林兄弟會三個主要的體系：教育、司法、國家電視廣播。這些都是極為重要的國家機構。通過教育，他們先是迫使學校的女孩然後是全社會戴上頭巾；通過司法，他們引入了穆斯林的律令；通過傳媒，他們影響著輿論。
穆斯林兄弟會的領導層從來是腐敗的、非常富有的政治領導層，他們一直接受沙烏地阿拉伯的金錢資助，也就是說美國的資助。他們在兩個社會階層中有重大影響，其一是親資本主義、反共產主義、害怕民眾的中產階級，這些人認為穆斯林的統治不是壞事。中產階層自發地支持穆斯林兄弟會。他們在教師、醫生、律師等專業階層中有非常大的影響力。
同時，穆斯林兄弟會從流氓階層招收他們的雇傭民兵。埃及有大規模的貧困人口，在開羅，1千5百萬人口裡面有5百萬極貧人口。穆斯林兄弟會在其中政治意識很低的窮人中找到他們能夠動員的民兵隊伍。
如果運動「成功」，「選舉」進行，穆斯林兄弟會將成為議會的主要力量。美國對此是歡迎的，並認為他們是「溫和的」。其實不過是易於駕馭而已，他們可以接受美國的戰略，讓以色列繼續佔領巴勒斯坦。穆斯林兄弟會完全認同現行的「市場」體制，對外是依附的。他們事實上是統治階級中「買辦」的同夥。
群眾要推翻的是整個制度
汪暉：穆斯林兄弟會代表著宗教性的政治力量，但按照您的分析，這種宗教性的政治力量並沒有提供關於社會和經濟體制的另類選擇，恰恰相反，宗教的政治化與市場體制的鞏固之間並沒有衝突關係。上述4個方面各有不同的取向、特徵和背景，那這幾個運動是如何走到一起的？
阿敏：事情是這樣發生的：運動由年輕人發起，激進左派立即加入，第二天資產階級民主派加入。穆斯林兄弟會在頭4天是抵制這個群眾運動的，因為他們以為員警會很快鎮壓平亂；當他們看到運動並沒有被壓下去的時候，領導層覺得不能留在外面，才參加進去。大家必須知道這個事實。
汪暉：讓我們再談談美國的戰略。您在短文中曾經提到，美國對埃及的戰略與巴基斯坦模式非常相似，就是「政治的伊斯蘭」與軍事情報系統的結合。如果再加上一句，就是全球化的資本主義市場體制。這樣一種體制能夠產生出民主嗎？
阿敏：群眾要推翻的是整個制度，不僅是穆巴拉克，但穆巴拉克是制度的象徵。穆巴拉克任命蘇雷曼為副總統之後，不到幾個小時，群眾喊的口號是：「不要穆巴拉克，不要蘇雷曼，他們兩個都是美國人。」
歐巴馬說我們需要軟過渡，就像菲律賓當年那樣。群眾說，我們要推翻的不是一個罪犯，而是所有罪犯，我們要的是真正的過渡，不要假的。群眾的政治意識很高。可是，美國的目的是軟過渡，怎麼做？就是公開地與右派、中間派、穆斯林兄弟會以至部分資產階級民主派協商，同時孤立年輕人和左派，這就是他們的戰略。
不論他們是否達成正式的協定，穆巴拉克是要出局的。副總統蘇雷曼發起所謂的協商邀請，穆斯林兄弟會很聰明，拒絕了邀請，但是他們原則上是接受與制度協商的。
美國的目的並不是民主
汪暉：但目前運動的主要力量是青年運動和更為廣泛的社會運動。工人罷工了，那是傳統左翼長期活動的區域。那麼，面對美國和埃及統治階層的這種所謂「軟過渡」策略，群眾如何反應？
阿敏：群眾運動的大會每天都在討論真正的過渡的規則：
第一：立即解散假民主的議會；
第二：立即取消戒嚴令，容許自由的集會權；
第三：開始制訂新憲法；
第四：選舉立憲議會；
第五：不要立即或者很快的選舉，而是容許一段長的自由時期。如果是立即選舉，很多人會投票給穆斯林兄弟會，因為他們有組織力、有傳媒等等。可是，如果有一年的真正自由，那麼，左派和年輕人便可以自我組織。
這是一場漫長鬥爭的開端。埃及是革命長期進行的地方。1920年到1952年的長革命時期，有進有退。長遠來說，左派和年輕人占了多數，有行動能力。可是，一個可能的壞前景是，穆斯林兄弟會和政權會用力打擊左派和年輕人，政權已經這樣做了。這個制度是非常惡毒的。在示威期間，政權打開了監獄，釋放了1萬7千名罪犯，給他們支持穆巴拉克的徽章、武器、金錢，並保證他們不會重返監獄，讓他們去襲擊示威者。示威的群眾並沒有衝擊監獄，是員警把他們釋放的。
汪暉：社會運動提出的口號之一，是要求建立一個文職政府（civil government），即這個政府既不能是軍人的政府，也不能是宗教政府。這也正是「civil」這一語詞的真正含義。
從策略上說，運動需要一定的準備時期，在廣泛動員和參與的基礎上，形成自身的綱領和代表人物，以便直接介入大規模運動之後的政治進程。
穆巴拉克的員警專制，使得埃及社會缺乏政治空間，除了轉入地下的共產黨和穆斯林兄弟會之外，社會處於一種「去政治化」的狀態。現在的任務是「重新政治化」，也正處於「重新政治化」的過程之中。
「去政治化」既是穆巴拉克體制垮台的原因，也是今天社會運動面臨的困難。如果「軟過渡」策略部分奏效，即穆巴拉克下台，由軍方和員警力量支撐，群眾運動能否持續並形成更為清晰的目標，就成了一個最重要的挑戰。
您認為年輕人是支持左派的，但可能右派和穆斯林兄弟會也會試圖分化年輕人。最重要的是年輕人和民主派不支持美國。民主派會怎樣，他們能夠提出什麼目標嗎？
阿敏：很多民主派是中立的，並不反美。巴拉迪很天真，以為美國支持民主。我們不斷強調的是，美國的目的並不是民主。
■埃及軍方高層將領在電視上發表完致詞後，開羅解放廣場上的群眾高聲歡呼慶祝，圖攝於2月10日。（圖文／路透）
農民在運動中的角色
劉健芝：傳統左派運動與工人之間有密切關係。工人起了什麼作用？
阿敏：3年前，一個罷工浪潮橫掃埃及，那是50年以來非洲大陸（包括南非）最強大的工人運動。從納塞時期開始，官方的工會完全被國家政權控制，就像蘇聯的國家控制工會的模式。因此，罷工不是由工會領導層發動的，而是由基層發起的。在這個意義上，罷工是自發的，取得了重大的勝利。
3年前，政權就想調動員警鎮壓，但是資方覺得不行，怕把工廠都毀了。於是他們進行協商，罷工工人贏得的工資增長並不多，只有10％或5％，連通貨膨脹吃掉的都追不上，可是，他們贏得了很重要的成果，就是尊嚴和工會權利，譬如說，解雇工人要有工會認可。他們接著成立了新的獨立工會，這次也參加了運動。
劉健芝：農民在運動中的角色如何？
阿敏：相對而言，農民運動很難串聯。農民運動從1920年以來一直很激進，他們要反對的既有大地主，也有富農。富農在農村社會裡勢力很強，他們不像地主那樣不在地生活，他們跟政府、律師、醫生都有密切的關係。另外的是中農、貧農、赤貧農和無地農民。
無地農民的狀況在過去30年並沒有惡化，因為他們出去海灣國家打工，賺了一點小錢，回來不夠買地，但夠他們在灰色經濟裡面做些小生意。赤貧的農民最受剝奪，因為新自由主義的市場讓他們任由富農、新資產階級地主和現代的埃及農業企業剝奪。赤貧農民最為激進，並不反對共產主義者，但是他們不知道什麼是共產主義。他們就是不知道。
汪暉：傳統左翼和共產主義運動在工人中影響很大。但對於農民，埃及的共產主義者的影響如何？
阿敏：共產主義者的不足，是一直沒有去團結農民。然則，唯一去跟他們討論的只有共產主義者，沒有穆斯林兄弟會，沒有資產階級民主派。可是，雖然沒有人刻意團結農民，他們卻繼續進行他們的鬥爭。
汪暉：在廣大的第三世界國家，農民的動員和角色始終是重要的一環。農民有沒有參加近期的動員？
阿敏：農民在農村有動員，但是沒有跟大運動連接。他們沒有參與討論過渡的民眾大會。
汪暉：運動是否主要是城市的？
阿敏：主要在城市，小城鎮也有。
反抗資本全球化的性質
汪暉：埃及的運動帶有強烈的自發性，不同的力量突然地加入到這場聲勢浩大的運動之中。這個運動與20世紀以政黨政治為動員機制的大眾運動十分不同，也不同於單純的階級運動，儘管工人階級和傳統左翼也是這場運動的重要的參與者。運動開始之後，許多政治組織和機會主義者試圖代表運動出來與政府談判，但大眾運動拒絕他們的代表性。您怎麼解釋運動的自發性？
阿敏：民眾對現制度、對員警都極為厭倦了。如果你只因很小的問題（例如闖紅燈）被逮捕，你會被毒打，被折磨。員警施加日常的鎮壓欺淩，完全無法無天，醜惡無比。民眾也厭倦了黑社會制度。世界銀行所說的代表未來的銀行家，是強盜流氓。他們怎麼累積財富的？是通過國家無償給他們土地，他們轉賣給地產商。這是巧取豪奪來累積的財富。他們把真正的企業家擠壓走了。
民眾也厭倦了美國的霸權。埃及人是民族主義愛國者。我們會問：我們怎麼可能這麼卑微，每天每個事情都由美國領事和美國總統來獨裁決定？另外，還有社會的衰敗，大多數人面對的是不斷惡化的失業和貧苦，社會不平等極為嚴重。所有這些加起來的不滿，讓政府徹底失去合法性。民眾說，夠了！忽然就爆炸了。有人因此犧牲了，但是他們知道，如果你參加鬥爭，你是可能犧牲的。
劉健芝：民眾的厭倦是長期的厭倦，忽然就爆炸，來自兩個當前的危機，一是高物價，二是高等教育青年的高失業率。民眾運動怎麼解決這兩個問題？
阿敏：這些問題都是資本主義危機造成的，因此，這次運動才帶有反抗資本主義全球化的性質。這正是要從根本上去解決危機問題。只要這場大眾的民主運動能夠獲得成功，民眾就會推進真正的社會經濟進步，化解這些危機。
汪暉：沙達特在美國支持下與以色列單獨媾和。過去30年，阿拉伯世界是分裂的。埃及作為阿拉伯世界的領頭羊，對於阿拉伯世界有過重大影響。儘管穆巴拉克在巴勒斯坦和以色列的和談中扮演特殊角色，但埃及的國際影響，尤其是在阿拉伯世界中的影響，實際上下降了。
昨天跟一位埃及朋友聊天，他對目前運動感到興奮──世界終於重新認識到埃及是一個多麼重要的國家！阿拉伯世界的格局十分複雜和微妙，其中最有影響的國家是那些親美的、接受現行資本主義體制的專制國家。那麼，埃及這場運動對阿拉伯世界的團結、對於阿拉伯世界內部的社會運動會有什麼影響？
阿敏：會引起迴響，但每個國家是不同的。突尼斯國家小，教育水準和生活水準都比較高，但是因為它小，在全球經濟裡面，它很脆弱。
汪暉：好像突尼斯的民眾組織更好，埃及群眾更為自發。對巴勒斯坦肯定會有影響吧？
阿敏：肯定是的。對敘利亞也有衝擊，那兒的情況很複雜。我們很難知道對伊拉克的影響是怎麼樣。南葉門是民族主義、民粹主義左派，帶有馬克思主義的修辭，有某種激進左派的思想。但它也像南北朝鮮，北方落後南方發達。葉門有可能再分裂，因為南方不能接受統一。
■人民聽到穆巴拉克下台時，熱淚盈眶。（圖╱Islam El Azzazi攝影團隊提供）
群眾大會尋找新憲法理念
（以下是2月13日穆巴拉克下台後通過電話所做的補充訪談）
劉健芝：穆巴拉克下台了，您對最新的發展有什麼評論？
阿敏：首先，穆巴拉克沒有辭職，他是給武裝部隊最高委員會的政變趕走的。他跟他的副總統蘇雷曼都被趕走了。新的軍隊領導層聲稱它會執政，一直到新選舉舉行之後，然後，軍隊會返回軍營。軍隊說在這個期間，它會處理過渡。
但是，群眾運動大會繼續工作，第一，推進新民主，要求所有公民的自由權利，例如集社自由、傳媒權利等等。第二，群眾運動大會將尋找新憲法的理念，俾使選舉的是立憲議會而不是立法議會，儘管政府想做的是部分修改現行憲法。
現在要知道新政府會怎麼樣處理情況，還言之尚早。再多等幾天，情況就會明朗。群眾運動還沒有完成它的工作。軍隊領導層希望有一個強過渡，推進選舉，穆斯林兄弟會將會取得多數。我們希望選舉前有一個緩過渡，以讓新的政治、民主力量可以組織起來，可以發展它們的綱領和工作，並能跟社會公眾有交流。
汪暉：這也許是這場運動能否成為一場真正的革命的關鍵。廣泛的社會運動只有通過大會的形式才能形成自己的綱領和領導層，參與制憲過程，而現成的形式民主框架，很可能導致在前政權下已經存在的組織，如穆斯林兄弟會或軍方推薦的人物，佔據議會和權力的中心──事實上，穆巴拉克政權也有某種民主形式，但它的代議制和選舉制不具有代表性，而是專斷的政治形式。一個通過大眾民主而產生的真正的civil government能否成型，是未來埃及政治走向的關鍵。這對今天埃及青年運動、工人運動和進步組織是一個真正的挑戰。
（本文經汪暉與劉健芝校正，並全文交由《新國際》發表）
2011年2月21日 星期一
Don't Look Back In Anger - Oasis
Don't Look Back In Anger - Oasis
Slip inside the eye in your mind
Don't you know you might find
A better place to play
You said that you'd never been
But all the things that you've seen
They're gonna fade away
So I'll start the revolution from my bed
Cause you said the brains I had went to my head
Step outside the summertime's in bloom
Stand up beside the fireplace
Take that look from off your face
You ain't ever gonna burn my heart out
So Sally can wait
She knows its too late as she's walking on by
Her soul slides away
But don't look back in anger
I heard you say
Take me to the place where you go
Where nobody knows if it's night or day
Please don't put your life in the hands
Of a Rock and Roll band
Who'll throw it all away
I'll start the revolution from my bed
Cause you said the brains I had went to my head
Step outside the summertime's in bloom
Stand up beside the fireplace
Take that look from off your face
You ain't ever gonna burn my heart out
So Sally can wait
She knows its too late as she's walking on by
Her soul slides away
But don't look back in anger
I heard you say
Don't look back in anger
Don't look back in anger
Don't look back in anger
At least not today
A Day In The Life - The Beatles
A Day In The Life - The Beatles
I read the news today oh boy
About a lucky man who made the grave
And though the news was rather sad
Well I just had to laugh
I saw the photograph
He blew his mind out in a car
He didn't notice that the lights had changed
A crowd of people stood and stared
They'd seen his face before
Nobody was really sure
If he was from the House of Lords
I saw a film today oh boy
The English Army had just won the war
A crowd of people turned away
but I just had to look
Having read the book
I'd love to turn you on
Woke up, fell out of bed
Dragged a comb across my head
Found my way downstairs and drank a cup
And looking up I noticed I was late
Found my coat and grabbed my hat
Made the bus in second splat
Found my way upstairs and had a smoke
and Somebody spoke and I went into a dream
I read the news today oh boy
Four thousand holes in Blackburn, Lancashire
And though the holes were rather small
They had to count them all
Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall
I'd love to turn you on
2011年2月19日 星期六
美否決譴責以色列議案 對巴以和談造成負面影響
轉貼來源：中新網 2011 二月 20 17:01:12
http://www.chinesetoday.com/news/show/id/461578
美國18日在聯合國安理會否決了由阿拉伯國家起草的一項譴責以色列擴建猶太人定居點的決議草案，致使這一得到其他14個安理會成員投票贊成、同時得到100多個國家支援的決議草案未能獲得通過。
分析人士認為，美國此舉意在安撫盟友以色列和美國國內親以勢力，但這種明顯偏袒以方的舉動必然會引起國際社會的強烈不滿，並對巴以和平進程帶來負面影響。
美國：國內國外考量多
這一決議草案由安理會非常任理事國黎巴嫩去年12月19日提出，從醞釀起草、打磨修改到提交表決，歷 時兩個月。草案指出，以色列在約旦河西岸和加沙地帶興建猶太人定居點是非法的，並對以色列在被占領土上繼續興建定居點進行譴責，這些核心內容實際上符合美 國有關政策，美國完全可以在表決中投棄權票。但美國此次為何仍要堅持行使否決權？
美方給出的理由是，它認為這一決議草案在內容上“一邊倒”，“沒有保持平衡”。美國常駐聯合國代表賴 斯在安理會表決後解釋美國立場時說，她擔心“這一決議草案存在使(巴以)雙方立場趨於強硬的風險”，從而影響中東和平進程。她認為，目前聯合國不是處理猶 太人定居點問題的合適場所，這一問題應由巴以雙方通過和談加以解決。
但分析人士指出，美國動用否決權，更重要的是考慮到美以關係以及美國國內的政治因素。
從美以關係的角度來看，以色列近來已對美國“拋棄”埃及前總統穆巴拉克導致埃及政局突變表示強烈不滿，因此，美國此次行使否決權，就是要在當前中東有關國家政局持續動蕩的情況下，不讓以色列有受到美國冷落的感覺，希望借此繼續穩住以色列，以維護美國在中東地區的利益。
從美國國內因素來看，奧巴馬政府擔心，如果此次在安理會投棄權票，會使美國國會中支援以色列的共和黨與民主黨進一步對立，從而使他領導的政府受到共和黨更多的掣肘。
以巴：一家歡喜一家愁
美國動用否決權，使以色列如釋重負。以總理內塔尼亞胡19日就美國否決決議草案向美國總統奧巴馬表示“深深的感謝”。
以總理辦公室發表的聲明說：“美國政府的決定充分表明，實現巴以和平的唯一途徑是直接和談，而非由國際機構決定。”
以色列國家安全研究所副所長耶胡達·本－梅厄表示，美國政府否決草案並無懸念，因此以色列政府並不擔心其在定居點問題上承受壓力，它更加看重這一決定可能產生的影響，即推動巴勒斯坦方面放棄單方面行動，重回談判桌。
與此同時，對於美國的否決行動，巴方從上到下噓聲一片。巴勒斯坦解放組織執行委員會18日深夜在執委會主席阿巴斯的主持下召開緊急會議商討對策，並對美國的做法予以譴責。
執委會委員埃雷卡特在會後對新華社記者說，巴領導層認為美國的做法是“令人失望”和“沒有道理”的。 埃雷卡特認為，興建猶太人定居點有悖于國際法，而美國在中東地區局勢出現新情況時依然使用否決權，是一種不負責任的做法。他說，巴方將繼續通過國際渠道， 尋求國際社會支援巴勒斯坦人的合法權利。
在約旦河西岸城市拉姆安拉，在得到美國動用否決權的消息後，數千名巴勒斯坦人18日夜自發涌上街頭舉行示威遊行活動。
後果：和平進程難推進
儘管賴斯當天在安理會強調，美國行使否決權不代表支援修建定居點活動，“美國承諾為以色列和巴勒斯坦尋求廣泛和全面的和平”，但是，美方的行動還是遭到了包括阿拉伯國家在內的許多國家的批評，認為美國此舉將嚴重影響巴以和平進程。
分析人士認為，美國此次在安理會行使否決權的舉動，被看做是美國強行阻止反以輿論的表現，將對巴以和平進程產生負面影響。
首先，去年9月重新啟動的巴以直接和談再次陷入僵局的主要原因就是以色列繼續在被占領土興建猶太人定 居點。巴方曾多次表示，只要以方繼續興建猶太人定居點，他們就不可能回到談判桌旁。巴勒斯坦常駐聯合國觀察員曼蘇爾當天在安理會說，該決議草案未能獲得通 過“是非常不幸的”，他擔心這強化了“有罪不罰”現象，可能會讓以色列更加強硬。
其次，美國不惜在安理會動用否決權來偏袒以色列，使人們對美國能否繼續在巴以之間進行有效調停產生疑 慮。努力推動中東和平進程是奧巴馬政府的一項重要外交政策，正是由於華盛頓的極力撮合，巴以雙方才在去年9月恢復中斷多時的直接會談，但和談後來又因以方 拒絕延長定居點限建令而中斷。在此情況下，人們有理由懷疑，美方能否以中立者的身份繼續在巴以間斡旋，美方的有關和談倡議在短時間內能否得到巴勒斯坦以及 廣大阿拉伯國家的積極響應。
美國作為中東問題四方之一，將在下月與聯合國、歐盟和俄羅斯一起開會討論如何推動中東和平進程。在巴勒斯坦對美國行使否決權感到失望的情況下，中東問題四方在會上究竟能有多大作為，有待觀察。(綜合駐外記者顧震球、袁震宇、郝方甲、趙悅報道)
巴勒斯坦謀求批以方新決議 美國"明著"偏袒一票否決
轉貼來源： 新華網 2011年02月21日 07:54:54 http://big5.xinhuanet.com/gate/big5/news.xinhuanet.com/world/2011-02/21/c_121102145.htm
美國投出安理會唯一否決票
轉貼來源：北京新浪網 (2011-02-20 08:38)
http://news.sina.com.tw/article/20110220/4203612.html
14票贊成、1票否決
本報聯合國2月19日電 （記者席來旺、吳雲）聯合國安理會18日就包括巴勒斯坦問題在內的中東局勢召開會議，15個安理會成員就一項有關以色列在巴勒斯坦被占領土修建定居點活動的決議草案進行了表決。草案重申1967年以來以色列在包括東耶路撒冷在內的巴勒斯坦被占領土上所修建的定居點均為非法。這項決議最終以14票贊成、美國1票否決的結果未能獲得通過。19日，在約旦河西岸城市納布盧斯，解放巴勒斯坦民主陣線的支持者上街遊行，抗議美國在安理會否決該決議草案（見圖，新華社發）。中國常駐聯合國代表李保東表示反對以色列在巴勒斯坦被占領土修建定居點。
安理會當天就以色列定居點問題的決議草案進行表決。此次有120多個國家共同提出這一決議草案，呼籲以色列立即停止在巴勒斯坦土地上建設定居點的一切活動。這一決議也重申以色列在巴勒斯坦地區的定居點是非法的，並且是實現和平的主要障礙。美國是安理會15個成員國中唯一投否決票的國家。美國常駐聯合國代表賴斯在表決之後的發言中解釋說，美國否決這項決議草案的做法不應當被解讀為美國支持定居點活動，但美國不認為這項決議有助於推動巴以恢復談判。
“表明在責成以色列履行其國際義務方面的失敗”
賴斯發言之後，巴勒斯坦常駐聯合國觀察員曼蘇爾譴責美國投否決票，他說，這表明在責成以色列履行其國際義務方面的失敗。而以色列常駐聯合國代表盧賓說，被否決的決議草案本來就不該呈交安理會，而且最終可能危及和平進程。俄羅斯等多個國家對決議草案未能通過表示遺憾。
中國常駐聯合國代表李保東在表決後發言時說，中國對阿拉伯國家起草的以色列定居點問題決議草案未獲通過深感遺憾。他說，當前，以色列繼續修建定居點成為影響巴以互信和阻礙雙方恢復和談的主要障礙。中國堅決反對以色列在巴勒斯坦被占領土、包括約旦河西岸和東耶路撒冷修建定居點和隔離牆，堅定支持巴勒斯坦人民的正當要求，一貫堅定支持巴勒斯坦人民爭取合法民族權利的正義事業。中國一貫主張巴以雙方在聯合國有關決議、“土地換和平”原則、“阿拉伯和平倡議”和中東和平“路線圖”計劃基礎上，通過對話與談判化解分歧，最終實現巴勒斯坦獨立建國，巴以兩個國家和平共處。“中國支持安理會在中東和平進程中發揮應有的作用。我們也希望即將舉行的中東問題"四方機制"會議取得積極成果，推動打破中東和平進程僵局”。
本報莫斯科2月19日電 （記者張光政） 據俄羅斯媒體報導，俄羅斯常駐聯合國代表丘爾金18日在聯合國安理會會議上發言時表示，俄羅斯呼籲以色列按照國際社會的要求行事，暫停在巴勒斯坦被占領土興建定居點的行為。他說，以色列的活動違反了國際法的准則，阻礙巴以談判的恢復。他隨後還發表聲明說，俄羅斯對巴以在恢復直接談判方面沒有取得進展表示關注，俄羅斯一貫支持巴勒斯坦建立獨立國家。他認為，巴勒斯坦獨立建國將有利於巴勒斯坦人、以色列人和中東地區。
俄外交部19日發表聲明稱，俄支持譴責以色列在巴勒斯坦被占領土修建猶太定居點的決議草案。
“將惡化當地人民對美國的態度，無助於和平進程”
本報華盛頓2月19日電 （記者馬小寧）《華盛頓郵報》19日發表文章認為，奧巴馬去年曾在聯大講話時表示，希望今年某些時候巴以雙方能就獨立的巴勒斯坦國達成新協議。但奧巴馬政府18日投下的否決票，與這一立場相去甚遠。該報分析認為，儘管美國政府官員公開批評以色列的定居點政策，但在中東地區政治處於動蕩的關鍵時刻，奧巴馬政府不顧安理會其他14個成員國的反對，孤注一擲，投票反對譴責以色列定居點政策的決議，顯然是不想因此激怒以色列及其在美國的支持者，共和黨議員一直在督促奧巴馬政府要“不惜一切代價”支持以色列。
2006年，布什政府曾投票否決聯合國要求以色列中止在加沙地帶軍事行動的決議。該報援引巴勒斯坦民族權力機構主席阿巴斯新聞發言人的話警告說，美國再度行使否決權，正值“錯誤的時間”，將產生更嚴重後果，不僅將加劇中東國家的政治危機，而且將惡化當地人民對美國的態度，無助於和平進程。
《紐約時報》、《華爾街日報》的分析稱，聯合國這一決議案使美國處於兩難的困境中，要麼面對阿拉伯世界的憤怒，被指責在反對新的定居點政策上的立場倒退，要麼面對以色列及其在美國國會支持者的抨擊。為避免這一困境，奧巴馬政府一直試圖勸說巴勒斯坦方面修改決議案中的措施，但該提議遭到阿巴斯的反對。阿巴斯認為，“中東和平進程已經死亡”，他所面臨的國內壓力不允許他做出更多的讓步，擔心阿拉伯國家發生的動蕩將蔓延到巴勒斯坦。奧巴馬政府一直到17日晚間都避免就是否投否決票明確表態，這種曖昧態度引起國會兩黨眾多支持以色列的議員的抨擊。
本報開羅2月19日電 （記者焦翔、張夢旭）巴勒斯坦民族權力機構對美國否決該決議草案予以強烈譴責。巴民族權力機構主席阿巴斯在其官邸外會見了數百名支持者，他在講話中說：“我們一直期望占領者有朝一日離開我們的家園，這樣我們就能夠建立獨立的、以耶路撒冷為首都的巴勒斯坦國。我們完全不接受猶太人定居點的存在。”阿巴斯的親密助手納比勒‧魯代納表示，美國否決該決議草案對和平進程絲毫沒有益處，只會鼓勵以色列繼續建立定居點並逃避在和平進程中所應承擔的責任。
針對美國此舉，埃及認為這是“不民主的表現”，並提出了強烈批評。埃及外交部發言人侯塞姆表示，在聯合國安理會決議得到14個成員國支持的情況下，因為美國的反對而失敗表示十分遺憾，認為這不僅僅令巴勒斯坦人、阿拉伯人，也令全世界的民眾感到失望。埃及中東戰略研究中心的著名專家薩利赫在接受本報記者採訪時表示，美國此舉凸顯其偏袒以色列的不公正立場，將嚴重影響其在中東、阿拉伯國家乃至全世界的信譽。他表示，一直以來，美國都在擴建猶太人定居點等問題上支持以色列，暴露了其實用主義、自身利益至上的本質，而非所謂的“民主”。此外，美國投反對票一事，違背了國際社會推動巴以和談的強烈願望和制裁以色列的初衷，助長了以色列擴建定居點的殖民主義做法，使巴以和平談判的前景變得更加撲朔迷離。
http://www.chinesetoday.com/news/show/id/461578
美國18日在聯合國安理會否決了由阿拉伯國家起草的一項譴責以色列擴建猶太人定居點的決議草案，致使這一得到其他14個安理會成員投票贊成、同時得到100多個國家支援的決議草案未能獲得通過。
分析人士認為，美國此舉意在安撫盟友以色列和美國國內親以勢力，但這種明顯偏袒以方的舉動必然會引起國際社會的強烈不滿，並對巴以和平進程帶來負面影響。
美國：國內國外考量多
這一決議草案由安理會非常任理事國黎巴嫩去年12月19日提出，從醞釀起草、打磨修改到提交表決，歷 時兩個月。草案指出，以色列在約旦河西岸和加沙地帶興建猶太人定居點是非法的，並對以色列在被占領土上繼續興建定居點進行譴責，這些核心內容實際上符合美 國有關政策，美國完全可以在表決中投棄權票。但美國此次為何仍要堅持行使否決權？
美方給出的理由是，它認為這一決議草案在內容上“一邊倒”，“沒有保持平衡”。美國常駐聯合國代表賴 斯在安理會表決後解釋美國立場時說，她擔心“這一決議草案存在使(巴以)雙方立場趨於強硬的風險”，從而影響中東和平進程。她認為，目前聯合國不是處理猶 太人定居點問題的合適場所，這一問題應由巴以雙方通過和談加以解決。
但分析人士指出，美國動用否決權，更重要的是考慮到美以關係以及美國國內的政治因素。
從美以關係的角度來看，以色列近來已對美國“拋棄”埃及前總統穆巴拉克導致埃及政局突變表示強烈不滿，因此，美國此次行使否決權，就是要在當前中東有關國家政局持續動蕩的情況下，不讓以色列有受到美國冷落的感覺，希望借此繼續穩住以色列，以維護美國在中東地區的利益。
從美國國內因素來看，奧巴馬政府擔心，如果此次在安理會投棄權票，會使美國國會中支援以色列的共和黨與民主黨進一步對立，從而使他領導的政府受到共和黨更多的掣肘。
以巴：一家歡喜一家愁
美國動用否決權，使以色列如釋重負。以總理內塔尼亞胡19日就美國否決決議草案向美國總統奧巴馬表示“深深的感謝”。
以總理辦公室發表的聲明說：“美國政府的決定充分表明，實現巴以和平的唯一途徑是直接和談，而非由國際機構決定。”
以色列國家安全研究所副所長耶胡達·本－梅厄表示，美國政府否決草案並無懸念，因此以色列政府並不擔心其在定居點問題上承受壓力，它更加看重這一決定可能產生的影響，即推動巴勒斯坦方面放棄單方面行動，重回談判桌。
與此同時，對於美國的否決行動，巴方從上到下噓聲一片。巴勒斯坦解放組織執行委員會18日深夜在執委會主席阿巴斯的主持下召開緊急會議商討對策，並對美國的做法予以譴責。
執委會委員埃雷卡特在會後對新華社記者說，巴領導層認為美國的做法是“令人失望”和“沒有道理”的。 埃雷卡特認為，興建猶太人定居點有悖于國際法，而美國在中東地區局勢出現新情況時依然使用否決權，是一種不負責任的做法。他說，巴方將繼續通過國際渠道， 尋求國際社會支援巴勒斯坦人的合法權利。
在約旦河西岸城市拉姆安拉，在得到美國動用否決權的消息後，數千名巴勒斯坦人18日夜自發涌上街頭舉行示威遊行活動。
後果：和平進程難推進
儘管賴斯當天在安理會強調，美國行使否決權不代表支援修建定居點活動，“美國承諾為以色列和巴勒斯坦尋求廣泛和全面的和平”，但是，美方的行動還是遭到了包括阿拉伯國家在內的許多國家的批評，認為美國此舉將嚴重影響巴以和平進程。
分析人士認為，美國此次在安理會行使否決權的舉動，被看做是美國強行阻止反以輿論的表現，將對巴以和平進程產生負面影響。
首先，去年9月重新啟動的巴以直接和談再次陷入僵局的主要原因就是以色列繼續在被占領土興建猶太人定 居點。巴方曾多次表示，只要以方繼續興建猶太人定居點，他們就不可能回到談判桌旁。巴勒斯坦常駐聯合國觀察員曼蘇爾當天在安理會說，該決議草案未能獲得通 過“是非常不幸的”，他擔心這強化了“有罪不罰”現象，可能會讓以色列更加強硬。
其次，美國不惜在安理會動用否決權來偏袒以色列，使人們對美國能否繼續在巴以之間進行有效調停產生疑 慮。努力推動中東和平進程是奧巴馬政府的一項重要外交政策，正是由於華盛頓的極力撮合，巴以雙方才在去年9月恢復中斷多時的直接會談，但和談後來又因以方 拒絕延長定居點限建令而中斷。在此情況下，人們有理由懷疑，美方能否以中立者的身份繼續在巴以間斡旋，美方的有關和談倡議在短時間內能否得到巴勒斯坦以及 廣大阿拉伯國家的積極響應。
美國作為中東問題四方之一，將在下月與聯合國、歐盟和俄羅斯一起開會討論如何推動中東和平進程。在巴勒斯坦對美國行使否決權感到失望的情況下，中東問題四方在會上究竟能有多大作為，有待觀察。(綜合駐外記者顧震球、袁震宇、郝方甲、趙悅報道)
巴勒斯坦謀求批以方新決議 美國"明著"偏袒一票否決
轉貼來源： 新華網 2011年02月21日 07:54:54 http://big5.xinhuanet.com/gate/big5/news.xinhuanet.com/world/2011-02/21/c_121102145.htm
新華網北京2月21日電（記者 唐志強）巴勒斯坦官員１９日說，巴方決定在聯合國大會謀求通過一項新決議，譴責以色列繼續在巴勒斯坦被佔領土修建猶太人定居點。
巴勒斯坦民族權力機構主席馬哈茂德‧阿巴斯同一天說，盡管美國在聯合國安全理事會否決譴責以色列繼續修建定居點的決議草案，但巴方已取得外交“勝利”，會繼續和美方合作。
再嘗試
巴勒斯坦解放組織執行委員會秘書長亞西爾‧阿比德‧拉布１９日說，巴勒斯坦領導人決定在９月聯合國大會上再次嘗試通過譴責以色列的決議。
拉布說：“我們決定，在聯合國大會尋求通過一項聯合國決議，反對並譴責他們（以色列）繼續修建猶太人定居點。”
按拉布的說法，新決議將“強調，以色列（繼續）修建定居點不合法”。
他說，如果聯合國大會通過這項決議，“我們將（再次）向聯合國安理會遞交草案，譴責（以色列）定居點建設”。
聯合國安理會１８日表決一項譴責以色列在巴勒斯坦地區繼續修建猶太人定居點的決議草案。
草案“重申以色列在東耶路撒冷和其他１９６７年來巴勒斯坦被佔領土修建猶太人定居點違法，為實現公正、持久、廣泛和平設置障礙……再次要求以色列立即、完全停止在巴勒斯坦被佔領土的所有定居點修建活動”。
美國一票否決這一草案，引起巴方不滿。
還合作
巴勒斯坦民族權力機構主席阿巴斯１９日在拉姆安拉告訴巴勒斯坦通訊社記者，巴方將繼續和美國合作。
“我們不打算抵制美國政府。抵制任何人都不符合我們的利益，”阿巴斯說，“我們只想保護自身利益和國際法賦予我們的權利。”
他承認，美國一度向他施壓，要求巴方從安理會撤回決議草案，“但我們對巴勒斯坦民眾利益的關切強于所有這些壓力”。
阿巴斯當天晚些時候在電話中向美國中東問題特使喬治‧米切爾承諾，繼續與以色列推動和平進程。
阿巴斯對一群大學生說，雖然美國否決決議草案，但巴勒斯坦已取得外交“勝利”。
他說，在“巴勒斯坦領導層連續兩天面臨強大壓力”的情況下，巴方堅持把草案遞交安理會表決是“明智決定”。
決議草案由大約１３０個聯合國成員國共同發起。除美國外，安理會其他１４個理事國投票讚成通過這項決議。
多遊行
在約旦河西岸城市納布盧斯，數以百計的巴勒斯坦人上街遊行示威。人群高呼：“（美國總統貝拉克‧）奧巴馬！討厭鬼！定居點建設不會長久！”
在附近城市圖勒凱爾姆，數百名示威者向以色列隔離墻進發，一些示威者朝以色列士兵投擲石塊。
示威者說，他們打算２０日組織更多示威。
巴勒斯坦民族解放運動（法塔赫）定于２０日在拉姆安拉示威，抗議美國否決草案。
伊斯蘭抵抗運動（哈馬斯）指責美國動用否決權“過分”。
哈馬斯發言人法齊‧巴爾胡姆說，美國再次表明自己“完全偏向”以色列，證明美國斡旋下的巴以和平進程失敗。
埃及外交部指責，美國一票否決草案“與美國反對定居點建設的公開立場矛盾。美國是（中東）和平進程調停人，這麼做會給它在阿拉伯世界的可信度帶來更大傷害”。
美國駐耶路撒冷領事館１９日要求工作人員今後３天避免前往約旦河西岸一些地區。
美國投出安理會唯一否決票
轉貼來源：北京新浪網 (2011-02-20 08:38)
http://news.sina.com.tw/article/20110220/4203612.html
本報聯合國2月19日電 （記者席來旺、吳雲）聯合國安理會18日就包括巴勒斯坦問題在內的中東局勢召開會議，15個安理會成員就一項有關以色列在巴勒斯坦被占領土修建定居點活動的決議草案進行了表決。草案重申1967年以來以色列在包括東耶路撒冷在內的巴勒斯坦被占領土上所修建的定居點均為非法。這項決議最終以14票贊成、美國1票否決的結果未能獲得通過。19日，在約旦河西岸城市納布盧斯，解放巴勒斯坦民主陣線的支持者上街遊行，抗議美國在安理會否決該決議草案（見圖，新華社發）。中國常駐聯合國代表李保東表示反對以色列在巴勒斯坦被占領土修建定居點。
安理會當天就以色列定居點問題的決議草案進行表決。此次有120多個國家共同提出這一決議草案，呼籲以色列立即停止在巴勒斯坦土地上建設定居點的一切活動。這一決議也重申以色列在巴勒斯坦地區的定居點是非法的，並且是實現和平的主要障礙。美國是安理會15個成員國中唯一投否決票的國家。美國常駐聯合國代表賴斯在表決之後的發言中解釋說，美國否決這項決議草案的做法不應當被解讀為美國支持定居點活動，但美國不認為這項決議有助於推動巴以恢復談判。
“表明在責成以色列履行其國際義務方面的失敗”
賴斯發言之後，巴勒斯坦常駐聯合國觀察員曼蘇爾譴責美國投否決票，他說，這表明在責成以色列履行其國際義務方面的失敗。而以色列常駐聯合國代表盧賓說，被否決的決議草案本來就不該呈交安理會，而且最終可能危及和平進程。俄羅斯等多個國家對決議草案未能通過表示遺憾。
中國常駐聯合國代表李保東在表決後發言時說，中國對阿拉伯國家起草的以色列定居點問題決議草案未獲通過深感遺憾。他說，當前，以色列繼續修建定居點成為影響巴以互信和阻礙雙方恢復和談的主要障礙。中國堅決反對以色列在巴勒斯坦被占領土、包括約旦河西岸和東耶路撒冷修建定居點和隔離牆，堅定支持巴勒斯坦人民的正當要求，一貫堅定支持巴勒斯坦人民爭取合法民族權利的正義事業。中國一貫主張巴以雙方在聯合國有關決議、“土地換和平”原則、“阿拉伯和平倡議”和中東和平“路線圖”計劃基礎上，通過對話與談判化解分歧，最終實現巴勒斯坦獨立建國，巴以兩個國家和平共處。“中國支持安理會在中東和平進程中發揮應有的作用。我們也希望即將舉行的中東問題"四方機制"會議取得積極成果，推動打破中東和平進程僵局”。
本報莫斯科2月19日電 （記者張光政） 據俄羅斯媒體報導，俄羅斯常駐聯合國代表丘爾金18日在聯合國安理會會議上發言時表示，俄羅斯呼籲以色列按照國際社會的要求行事，暫停在巴勒斯坦被占領土興建定居點的行為。他說，以色列的活動違反了國際法的准則，阻礙巴以談判的恢復。他隨後還發表聲明說，俄羅斯對巴以在恢復直接談判方面沒有取得進展表示關注，俄羅斯一貫支持巴勒斯坦建立獨立國家。他認為，巴勒斯坦獨立建國將有利於巴勒斯坦人、以色列人和中東地區。
俄外交部19日發表聲明稱，俄支持譴責以色列在巴勒斯坦被占領土修建猶太定居點的決議草案。
“將惡化當地人民對美國的態度，無助於和平進程”
本報華盛頓2月19日電 （記者馬小寧）《華盛頓郵報》19日發表文章認為，奧巴馬去年曾在聯大講話時表示，希望今年某些時候巴以雙方能就獨立的巴勒斯坦國達成新協議。但奧巴馬政府18日投下的否決票，與這一立場相去甚遠。該報分析認為，儘管美國政府官員公開批評以色列的定居點政策，但在中東地區政治處於動蕩的關鍵時刻，奧巴馬政府不顧安理會其他14個成員國的反對，孤注一擲，投票反對譴責以色列定居點政策的決議，顯然是不想因此激怒以色列及其在美國的支持者，共和黨議員一直在督促奧巴馬政府要“不惜一切代價”支持以色列。
2006年，布什政府曾投票否決聯合國要求以色列中止在加沙地帶軍事行動的決議。該報援引巴勒斯坦民族權力機構主席阿巴斯新聞發言人的話警告說，美國再度行使否決權，正值“錯誤的時間”，將產生更嚴重後果，不僅將加劇中東國家的政治危機，而且將惡化當地人民對美國的態度，無助於和平進程。
《紐約時報》、《華爾街日報》的分析稱，聯合國這一決議案使美國處於兩難的困境中，要麼面對阿拉伯世界的憤怒，被指責在反對新的定居點政策上的立場倒退，要麼面對以色列及其在美國國會支持者的抨擊。為避免這一困境，奧巴馬政府一直試圖勸說巴勒斯坦方面修改決議案中的措施，但該提議遭到阿巴斯的反對。阿巴斯認為，“中東和平進程已經死亡”，他所面臨的國內壓力不允許他做出更多的讓步，擔心阿拉伯國家發生的動蕩將蔓延到巴勒斯坦。奧巴馬政府一直到17日晚間都避免就是否投否決票明確表態，這種曖昧態度引起國會兩黨眾多支持以色列的議員的抨擊。
本報開羅2月19日電 （記者焦翔、張夢旭）巴勒斯坦民族權力機構對美國否決該決議草案予以強烈譴責。巴民族權力機構主席阿巴斯在其官邸外會見了數百名支持者，他在講話中說：“我們一直期望占領者有朝一日離開我們的家園，這樣我們就能夠建立獨立的、以耶路撒冷為首都的巴勒斯坦國。我們完全不接受猶太人定居點的存在。”阿巴斯的親密助手納比勒‧魯代納表示，美國否決該決議草案對和平進程絲毫沒有益處，只會鼓勵以色列繼續建立定居點並逃避在和平進程中所應承擔的責任。
針對美國此舉，埃及認為這是“不民主的表現”，並提出了強烈批評。埃及外交部發言人侯塞姆表示，在聯合國安理會決議得到14個成員國支持的情況下，因為美國的反對而失敗表示十分遺憾，認為這不僅僅令巴勒斯坦人、阿拉伯人，也令全世界的民眾感到失望。埃及中東戰略研究中心的著名專家薩利赫在接受本報記者採訪時表示，美國此舉凸顯其偏袒以色列的不公正立場，將嚴重影響其在中東、阿拉伯國家乃至全世界的信譽。他表示，一直以來，美國都在擴建猶太人定居點等問題上支持以色列，暴露了其實用主義、自身利益至上的本質，而非所謂的“民主”。此外，美國投反對票一事，違背了國際社會推動巴以和談的強烈願望和制裁以色列的初衷，助長了以色列擴建定居點的殖民主義做法，使巴以和平談判的前景變得更加撲朔迷離。
2011年2月14日 星期一
回家：橄欖油與無花果樹的記憶 I Saw Ramallah
書名： 回家：橄欖油與無花果樹的記憶
原文： I Saw Ramallah 作者： 穆里．巴爾古提(Mourid Barghouti)
譯者： 陳逸如
出版： 馬可孛羅
出版日期： 2007年11月01日
在跨越約旦河的橋畔，穆里．巴爾古提靜靜的耐心等待著檢查哨以色列士兵的文件審核。三十年前，你也是跨越這座橋從Ramallah經安曼到開羅攻讀英國文學。1967年6月5日早晨爆發的以阿戰爭，讓Ramallah成為再也回不去的家鄉，三百五十萬巴勒斯坦人成為流離失所的難民─Naziheen。
巴勒斯坦難民─Naziheen意謂著什麼？你在世界上的任何國家不是被過度同情，便是被過度防備。你和分散世界各地的家人必須努力協調出一個所有家庭成員皆被許可入境的城市始得全家團聚，一個需要超乎想像的意志力和堅強的艱難課題。每一次的團聚都需逐個重新申請，一切的所作所為都是暫時的。你們在散居的城市用電話交換著家族親友的喜悅和悲傷的訊息，你沒有辦法參加家族朋友的婚禮和葬禮，因為你沒有護照，沒有簽證，沒有居留權或者你被禁止入境。你能想像一個在異鄉沒有親人在場、沒有傳統儀式、孤獨、渺小的婚禮？
母親、弟弟和弟媳開車載送你到安曼─他們被許可到達的最後城市。1993年，你的母親被核准回到Ramallah ，而你的哥哥卻在檢查哨等待整整一天後被遣返，他們總是沒有原因的放行家族中的某成員而又同時禁止同行的的其他成員。之後，你的哥哥流離到安曼再到法國，六個月後猝死在巴黎火車站。沒有人知道他為什麼會延誤了車班，又為什麼會受傷，他兩度蹣跚進入咖啡館試圖求救，卻兩度被當做酒醉遊民趕出門外，警察抵達時，他已孤零零倒臥雪地氣絕身亡。
佔領區意謂著什麼？每隔幾公尺會出現以色列的檢查哨和國旗，無邊無際的刺網。以色列可以隨時以任何理由封鎖特定地區，禁止任何人進出。城市之間設起路障、邊界。所有巴勒斯坦村落和都市間的道路都由以色列和巴勒斯坦共同管轄，也就是實際上由以色列管轄。圖書、報紙、雜誌一切均被禁止。
跨越過橋，便是佔領區內的家鄉，你的身體安靜地訴說著家鄉的故事。是記憶久遠斑駁了嗎？向他鄉朋友描述過千百回的蒼綠田野變成了禿脊山丘，交錯著現代建築樣式的以色列屯墾區，綿延不盡。長期的佔領讓家鄉模糊為程序和時間表，而這兩者通常又只有弱勢的被佔領一方才會重視。長期的佔領讓在巴勒斯坦出生的世代對巴勒斯坦逐漸陌生，也讓那些在流亡生活中誕生的世代對故鄉全然陌生。以色列的佔領製造了一個沒有地方可以回憶顏色、味道和聲音的世代，成功地將巴勒斯坦孩子變成巴勒斯坦概念的孩子。
家鄉的孩童再沒有人認識你，而家鄉被佔領者定格停留在過去的殘破中，不見任何改變。
家鄉的無花果樹因為無力照顧而被僅存的家族長者砍去，家鄉的每一個人都曾經嚐過它甜美的果實，而今，你只能在雅典、維也納的街頭攤子偶然買到回味它的甜美。還有世世代代滋養家鄉所有人的橄欖樹和橄欖油，豐饒的收稼滿足了所有人的自用與銷售，當你不得不在異鄉的雜貨店買取小小瓶裝的橄欖油，你真正感受到家鄉那遙不可及的事實。
1977年當你被逐出埃及，你的唯一兒子只有五個月大，這一分別直到十七年後你們才得以全家再次再開羅團聚。肩負著漫長的歲月，你知道時間已然慢條斯理的改變了你，你無法在驀然間感到欣喜。你必須放慢腳步讓過去的震盪慢慢平息，讓幸福寧靜的感覺溫和地回來。你想要找回昔日舊友和事物，卻發現人事全非。
從開羅到巴格達到貝魯特到布達佩斯到安曼再回到開羅，你從不曾真正住在某個地方，而是住在一段時光裡，住在自己內心的複雜世界。你必需在附傢俱的房子間不斷遷徙，你永遠無法蒐集屬於自己的藏書，你不曾擁有屬於自己的咖啡杯、自己挑選的床單、窗簾。你總是不斷的離開，每隔一段時間便必須不帶感情地放棄所有，於是你開始習慣並喜歡旅館生活，因為你不會在離開時感傷，旅館中的一切事物原就不屬於你。
你的離開有時是出於自己考量，有時是出於所在國的要求。
除了巴勒斯坦身份證和奧斯陸和平協議之後發行的新護照，巴勒斯坦人在各國海關機場都會被要求安全單位的許可，而這份許可他們一值都無法取得。 數百萬流離海外難民營的巴勒斯坦人被禁止攜帶巴勒斯坦當局的證件，禁止回到故鄉投票、選舉、發表意見或作任何政治貢獻，黎巴嫩政府明令禁止巴勒斯坦難民營從事87種職業，他們幾乎只許撿拾垃圾或者擦鞋維生，任何離開黎巴嫩國境的人都不准在入境。
你不准進入耶路撒冷，通往耶路撒冷的道路被改為彎曲道路以阻隔你的視線，你甚至無法從車窗匆匆一撇這個城市。所有的衝突都偏好象徵，如今，耶路撒冷變成了神學的耶路撒冷，但對你而言，耶路撒冷是一個童年日常生活的城市。以色列限制這個城市裡巴勒斯坦人的人數，房屋、窗戶、陽台、學校、育幼院的數量，還有周五週日祁禱的人數，規範觀光客的路線和觀光採購地點，巴勒斯坦人被禁止在這些路線之外，被刻意的隱形。
巴勒斯坦人的抗爭是一種善良的小流氓模式嗎？經過1980年代黎巴嫩的Sabra和Shatila難民營屠殺事件，巴解組織分裂成許多派系，各派系間激烈鬥爭。巴解被西方冠上恐怖份子的冠冕，同時也一再地退讓、妥協，巴勒斯坦的前途似乎永遠無解，而在世界媒體前，以色列成功地扮演著唯一受害者的角色。
在家鄉的最後一夜，你這一輩子的聲音開始在安靜漆黑的房間裡湧現，這一生過去的思緒、問題和畫面，還有未來迎接你和你們的日子。你想縫合時間，接連每個時刻，連接童年和老年，串聯出席者和缺席者，所有眼前的和不在眼前的，流亡和故里，還有你曾經想像過的和你現在看到的一切。敏感的詩人靈魂沒有流淚，之後，你會再帶著自己的兒子回家並且提出各式各樣問題。你的兒子出生在開羅，擁有約旦籍的巴勒斯坦父親，埃及籍的母親，他不曾見過Ramallah，他從不曾到過巴勒斯坦。
2011年2月12日 星期六
A Mission to Die For - Atta's Odyssey
從突尼西亞的失業自焚青年Mohamed Bouazizi，到開羅解放廣場無數在抗爭中死亡的無名青年，不禁讓人想起10年前那個同樣選擇最激烈絕決的手段去解決社會公義的埃及青年Mohamed Atta，重新閱讀當年的主流媒體報導和他兩位漢堡科技大學都市計畫學系同學的訪談，感慨無限。
source: TIME news by John Cloud Sunday, Sept. 30, 2001
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,176917-1,00.html
Before we get to his dislikes and disorders, his vexations as a child and his entanglements as an adult, let's poke inside Mohamed Atta's brain the night before he helped slaughter 7,000 people. "You have to remind yourself to listen and obey that night, for you will face situations that will require your obedience 100 percent," reads a letter found in Atta's luggage and in the belongings of two other hijackers. Atta would be happy to know that his evil was steadfast.
Though investigators are still excavating the hidden trails that led to Sept. 11, many point to Atta as the linchpin of the 19-man hijacking gang. From Hamburg, Germany, to South Florida to Las Vegas, Atta crossed paths with at least seven other hijackers. While some of these terrorists were barely out of their teens, Atta turned 33 days before the attacks. He seems to have been the center of gravity, the dour and meticulous ringleader. This is the story of how his malevolence was unleashed.
In Egypt, where Atta grew up, his family and friends describe a shy, unassuming young man who struggled to make his mark. They say he must have undergone a stark personality change to become the terrorist who supervised Sept. 11. Born in Kafr El Sheikh, a city on the Nile delta, Mohamed was the son of a lawyer and a homemaker. As a kid, his father says, he liked to play chess and disliked violent games. He was a scrawny youth--only 5 ft. 7 in. and until recently quite thin. (His dad called him "Bolbol," Arabic slang for a little singing bird.) Atta seemed overshadowed by his two sisters, who rose to become a zoology professor and a medical doctor. Atta graduated from Cairo University with a degree in architectural engineering and was an average student, according to his peers.
Atta made a few friends in school, but he was such a loner that when a classmate, Iman Ismail, drew a caricature of their class, she depicted Mohamed standing next to a sign posted on Egyptian military fences: COMING NEAR OR TAKING PHOTOS PROHIBITED. When it came to politics and religion, topics no Egyptian can avoid, he offered mainstream opinions. His friends don't remember ever seeing him pray, and they recall his harsh words for Islamic terrorists--"brainless, irresponsible people."
Which is why several of his Egyptian classmates could not accept his guilt in interviews with TIME. "I could never imagine him on a plane threatening people, killing people," says Ahmed Khalifa, 33, Atta's best friend at Cairo University. "He would be scared to death... He was not a leader. He had his opinion, but he was modest in everything. His emotions were steady, and he was not easily influenced or swayed. Mohamed was well liked because he never offended or bothered anyone." Says Ismail: "He was good to the roots."
But he had what could be interpreted as some ominous undercurrents. Atta could get exercised by the world's shortcomings, big and small. He spoke out impulsively against injustice. He was so sensitive that he could become emotional if an insect was killed. "He was a little bit pure," says Khaled Kattan, another classmate. "If he thought that I said or did something wrong, then he would say that in front of anybody."
Atta's father could be quite strict, according to friends. In interviews since Sept. 11, Mohammed El Amir, has denied that his son was involved in the attacks. "He is a moderate in his adherence to his faith like me and his mother," El Amir has said. But El Amir's politics suggest that Atta learned a few things about the world from his father. In a press conference last week, El Amir heatedly blamed the Israelis for the attacks and called the U.S. "the root of terrorism."
Cairo is one of the world's most crowded, impoverished cities, and by the early '90s, Atta felt the intense pressures on middle-class Egyptians not to slip in social rank. His friend Khalifa says Atta grew frustrated because he was unable to fulfill his academic ambitions in his homeland. He believed that political favoritism at Egyptian universities would keep him from the top spots.
So in autumn 1992, Atta enrolled at the Technical University of Hamburg-Harburg, in a sleepy corner of northern Germany. He hoped to earn a degree in urban planning and then return to Egypt. In 1993, he befriended fellow student Volker Hauth, and the two often traveled and studied together in the next few years. Hauth liked Atta but sensed a rigidity in his friend. "I knew Mohamed as a guy searching for justice," Hauth told the Los Angeles Times. "He felt offended by this broad wrong direction the world was taking."
In the mid-'90s, Atta began disappearing from school for extended periods. He would tell his thesis adviser that he was going to Aleppo, Syria, to work on his thesis. (It explored the conflict between Islam and modernity as reflected in the city's planning, and it won high marks when completed in August 1999.) Atta was away from his job at a Hamburg consultancy for months in 1995; he reportedly said he had gone on a pilgrimage to Mecca. Co-workers recall him condemning terrorist attacks on tourists in Egypt. But he also bemoaned Western influence--specifically, the rise of skyscrapers--in Arab cities.
From mid-1997 to October 1998, Atta seems to have disappeared from Hamburg entirely. He told his thesis adviser that he was gone for family reasons, but it's clear that he underwent profound changes during this time. He returned to school with the bushy beard favored by fundamentalists. He was more serious. Hauth, who left the university at the end of 1995 and lost contact with Atta, told the London Observer his friend could laugh at jokes about Arab dictators. But Chrilla Wendt, who knew Atta after he returned, said she couldn't remember him smiling.
Atta had grown more sullen about his life prospects. His old friend Khalifa ran into him on a Cairo street one day in 1999. He found Atta depressed about not having a career or a family back home. Atta said he had made few German friends. "I think he felt that he had just been studying all those years," Khalifa recalls. "When I said goodbye, I was sad."
German authorities now believe that sometime that year, Atta began touching base with a wide range of people connected to terrorism. They point to his association with a Syrian businessman, Mamoun Darkazanli, who had power of attorney for a German bank account in the name of a man thought to be Osama bin Laden's finance chief. Darkazanli denied any ties to terrorists last week.
Whatever Atta was doing behind the scenes, he was publicly spreading the word of the Koran. Early in 1999, university officials gave him permission to found an Islamic student group. (Investigators believe he eventually met hijackers Marwan Al-Shehhi and Ziad Samir Jarrah in the group.) The 40 or so members gathered to pray every day. The moderate boy from the outskirts of Cairo had grown devout, and he was surrounding himself with like-minded compatriots.
At the end of 1999, Atta, Al-Shehhi and Jarrah reported their passports stolen, possibly to clear any record of travel to Afghanistan. Within weeks, Atta and Al-Shehhi flew to the U.S. for a visit. Even at this early date, Atta may have been planning an air attack. Sometime in spring 2000, Atta--now a clean-shaven cartoon version of an American in Tommy Hilfiger and heavy cologne--walked into a U.S. Department of Agriculture office in Homestead, Fla., and inquired about loans for buying crop dusters. The office doesn't offer such loans, and it turned him away.
Atta returned briefly to Europe, but on June 3, 2000, he arrived in Newark, N.J., from Prague with a six-month tourist visa. Within a month, Atta and Al-Shehhi signed up for flight training at Huffman Aviation International in Venice, Fla. When the two men moved into a little pink house in nearby Nokomis, they brought sweets to their rental agent. Their Venice landlady, Dru Voss, says that while Al-Shehhi was a likable guy, Atta was an icicle who never looked her in the eye.
Atta and Al-Shehhi were eager students. Together they paid Huffman some $40,000 for about four months of training. Huffman owner Rudi Dekkers took an immediate dislike to Atta, the smaller man. Dekkers recalls that Atta once told him he had lived in Germany. Dekkers then launched into German, but Atta just turned away. Neither Atta nor Al-Shehhi socialized with the other 15 to 20 students.
Atta's tourist visa expired on Dec. 3, 2000, but no one seemed to notice (one of several lapses in immigration procedures that aided the hijackers). On Dec. 21, Atta and Al-Shehhi got their pilot licenses. About a week later, they trained for three hours each on the Boeing 727 simulator at Simcenter Inc. at Opa-Locka Airport, outside Miami. By that time, the two men, who called themselves cousins, had each logged about 300 hours of flying time. They were still beginners, but they knew enough to maneuver an airborne plane.
Around this time Atta and other hijackers purchased global-positioning devices known as GPS-3s from Tropic-Aero, an aviation-supply shop in Fort Lauderdale, Fla. These $475 devices, about the size of Game Boys, are used by pilots to navigate. Says Jerry Carbone, Tropic-Aero's president: "It's so simple to use, you and your wife would be able to find your way in a 767 once it's up. It's sad if [the hijackers] were able to use something anyone can get at K Mart."
In January of this year, Atta hopped a flight from Miami to Madrid. It's unclear why he went, and when he returned to Miami International Airport on Jan. 10, he was allowed back in the country despite his expired visa. He didn't bother to list his flight or carrier, yet sailed through immigration. The next month, Atta and Al-Shehhi rented a single-engine Piper Warrior from a Gwinnett County, Ga., flight school. Like many other pilots, they were honing their skills. Atta inquired again about crop dusters--this time in Belle Glade, Fla. He and some men with him wanted to know how much fuel and chemicals the yellow 502 Air Tractors could carry and whether special skills were needed to pilot them.
On April 26, Broward County sheriff's deputy Josh Strambaugh stopped Atta for a traffic violation. Atta didn't have his license with him and was given a citation. He did not show up for his hearing, and on June 4 a warrant was issued for his arrest. But it was too late. By this time, Atta and his men were moving every couple of months, drifting from one low-rent dwelling to the next. Nearing the final stages of their plotting, they had become very careful. They kept to themselves and seem not to have even attended a mosque. Only occasionally would somebody notice them. One observer was Jim Woolard, owner of a World Gym in Delray Beach, Fla., who recalls Atta as "driven" on the weight machines (perhaps one reason that the folks back home would have trouble recognizing the newly beefy Atta in photos released after Sept. 11).
On June 29, Atta traveled to Las Vegas, where he stayed in a cheap room, with the DO NOT DISTURB SIGN constantly dangling from the door. While in town, investigators told the Associated Press, he met with two other hijackers, Salem Alhazmi and Hani Hanjour. His Hamburg pals Al-Shehhi and Jarrah were also there, which suggests a planning session. Four of the five men were on separate flights on Sept. 11, and one theory is that the four leaders of the four hijacked planes were there to work out final details.
On July 9, Atta made another trip to Madrid. He spent 10 days in Spain, running up 1,250 miles on his rental car. His time there remains murky, but last week six men suspected of belonging to a group financed by bin Laden were arrested in Spain on charges unrelated to Sept. 11. Investigators are tracing Atta's steps to see whether he met with them.
Atta returned to the U.S. on a business visa. He made another quick trip to Las Vegas but spent most of his time in Florida. Sources have told TIME that in the 10 days before Sept. 11, Atta received at least two wire transfers of money from a man investigators have linked with bin Laden. But the last days weren't all business. On Sept. 7, Atta, Al-Shehhi and another man visited Shuckum's Oyster Bar and Grill in Hollywood, Fla. Contrary to earlier reports of his carousing, Atta was the only one of the three who didn't drink alcohol. Instead, he downed cranberry juice all night, sugary fuel for the pinball machine--Golden Tee '97--that he played for 3 1/2 hours.
When Atta brought hell to the north tower of the World Trade Center, when he perished in the flames and had his picture beamed around the world, friends back in Egypt were dumbfounded. They looked and looked again at the photos, trying to find the kid they once knew. "To fly a plane, what a joke! Mohamed could hardly ride a bike," says classmate Osama Abul Enein. "He came from an average middle-class background. Mohamed no way could have done that," agrees Ibrahim Salah, 33, a Cairo engineer who knew him in college.
But he did. How does someone change so much? Experts point out that extremist groups in the Muslim world have been attracting an increasing number of recruits who grew up comfortably. "Just because you are educated and travel does not mean that you cannot join a militant organization," says Hala Mostafa, an authority on militant groups at al-Ahram Center for Political and Strategic Studies in Cairo. "Terrorists should be illiterate or primitive? Not so."
Which still doesn't explain what happened to Mohamed Atta. "Let each find his blade for the prey to be slaughtered," reads a passage of the letter found in Atta's luggage. How Atta found his blade may never be known.
Ralph Bodenstein Interview
Beirut, Monday 15 October, 2001
source: Four Corners, Monday 12 November, 2001 ABC TV
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/atta/interviews/bodenstein.htm
Liz Jackson interviews Ralph Bodenstein who studied urban planning with Mohamed Atta at the Technical University of Hamburg-Harbug. He met him in 1994, when they, along with Volker Hauth, began working on a project in Cairo that was sponsored by the German government.
When did you first meet Mohamed?
Well I met him first at the end of 1994, he was studying in Hamburg…together with a colleague of his, Volker Hauth and they had prepared a project which was research to be done on plannings to be implemented or planned at least in the historic core of Cairo on the effects of traffic plannings and urban plannings on the social and urban situation and they had presented this project as a project for…a sort of non-governmental organisation but a big one who are very much interested in the exchange of scientists and of scholars that should be on the one hand between the US and Germany, on the other hand between Germany and third world countries and the program we were in was actually this program for the Third World countries which was sort of development politics program therefore, trainee program actually for young people from Germany to go into Third Eorld countries and to work with MDOs there and stuff like that so Volker Hauth and Mohamed El-Amir as he was called by then had developed this idea to make this project where they were looking for a third person to actually to come with them and I joined them in because I was doing Middle Eastern studies, urbanism and history of Islamic art.
I was studying it in Bonn actually so I joined them…and we did the preparation course together. This was actually the end of ’94 and went on until summer '95 and in August '95 we all left together for a three month field research period in Cairo.
So you worked together for about nine months?
I mean we went, you see these preparation courses they were just like a prolonged weekend every two months…like it was the first in December and then there was another one in February, another one in May something like that so it was only three courses. This is where we met for some days and we really were together then actually in Cairo for the first three months.
Tell us about the work in Cairo.
On the one hand we had to do field research on the ground in the … old town of Cairo, actually a specific area, all the area north of University, this is where we were working on, which are the northern city gates of historic Cairo and we were doing field research there actually on the economy on the ground. So actually what sort of craft and industry was there, of the traffic that was actually necessarily to supply them and to to get away the stuff they could use on the traffic actually of planes that were coming and going because it is not only a tourist site. Actually it's only the smallest part of Cairo which is really has been discovered by the tourist. The other part is just too far off or it's too popular actually for tourists to go there and we were mostly in these areas and … visiting factories and on the other hand we visited several planning offices as well from the municipality and the other state as well as private planning companies who were working for different projects of the state or of the municipality, and we looked at what they were actually planning in order to resolve problems; what problems did they actually see and how did they face them and deal with them. We tried to analyse actually the effects of these planning systems that were implemented on the existing social and economic structures and material structure of the story core.
What did Mohamed think about the kinds of plans that that the Egyptian Government or the tourist office had in mind for that particular area?
You see it's a little bit ambivalent to give a general judgment on that, because on the one hand there was this problem actually, of that there were many plans which just dealt with the issues in the interest of enforcing tourism in Cairo because one of the main state incomes actually for Egypt is the money which comes in from tourists, and so they pretty much concentrate on fostering tourism in Cairo as well which until then was not such a favourite place for tourists to stay so all these plans were pretty much concentrating on how to improve the situation for tourists and they did this by means of slowing the factories and the small scale industry which was there in the inner city and also by changing the physical environment like tearing down houses and trying to reconstruct historical structures that had been there before, now on the other hand you have the problem that these industries were also not in favour of the historical structures because if you've got aluminium factories in the city they only came there twenty years before. Before that they hadn't been there so they actually they just went in because it was a cheap place to set up a factory and it was central so you could easily deliver your clients to different parts of Cairo which made it actually a very important economic area which was cheap concerning rents and places but it was very effective in terms of space, and this was not in favour of historical monuments in the area. But on the other hand, many of the population, most of the people living there they were depending on these economic structures: they were working there and living there and it was very close for them so they had no transport costs… essential was the very low wages people are paid in Egypt so they were really depending on the fact that they did not have to come and go from a suburb to and from Cairo and paying buses and micro buses fees but they could just go walking or take a bicycle. So that was actually the general dilemma which every planning was facing there but what happened was that most of the plans that we dealt with and that we found were completely neglecting the social problem by just sending the people away and that's it. I mean they did not try and find other solutions for them. It was like clearing the space off of this industry, of the people and make it nicer for the tourists and so naturally I mean it wasn't only Mohamed but also Volker Hauth and me were very negative about this way of dealing with with the people living in the city …
What did he say to you about it?
We were discussing all this issues and he was naturally saying that he was aware of the fact, that actually these industries were not good for the historical city core but on the other hand [look at the] social programs if you were really to take people to other places, you should also create work for them in these places which certainly did not work, they did not do this and so he would have preferred to only bring out the most dangerous or the most problematic industries which had the highest pollution rates and to keep the other small industries which just had high noise emissions which were not so problematic actually and that was rather the more moderate approach that he would have voted for, but it was not in the plans. But they also wanted to break through … into the city core so they would ease the traffic flow and with this, this would have also brought down lots of historical structures. Mostly what we talk about is buildings from the 18th and 19th century which were still standing there and which when actually compared to a… mosque from the 14th century is not considered to be a valuable structure, and so then it's just brought down and that was also very problematic because we found that this would only increase the traffic flow in certain areas but it will not stop people from going there so it would just relocate the problem but not really solve it.
So when you talked amongst yourselves what was his feeling and your feeling about the way the Egyptian Government viewed those people who lived in that area and what importance should be placed on their right to live and work.
Yeah I mean he was criticising this complete ignorance of the social problems… because he was much more in favour of a more social approach to such an area in general in urban planning- that was one thing. On the other hand he also had a very strong interest in preserving the historical architectural structures which were witness to the history of one of the capital cities of the Islamic empires…. different centuries and has very beautiful and excellent architecture actually. It's extraordinary, actually it has changed a bit now but at that time it hadn't been really taken care of. There was more money put into excavating sites instead of renovating mosques and so there naturally was a need to do it and he was also pretty much in favour of that solution to preserve the city as it was actually grown and had grown throughout the centuries and to stop it from being completely transformed by houses like 19th century houses being brought down and high rises being built because this was what was going on. He was also very interested in the aspect of the rent, of these contracts, because of the fact that the rents hadn't been written for several decades, because there were several laws for renting, but the fact that the people living inside the houses they would not have the money to take care for a house and the owner wouldn't have it either because the income he got from the rent wasn't high enough; so the owners have an interest to let the houses run down and they did sometimes on purpose, so that the people would have to leave because the house was in such a bad state that you could not live there any longer. So they let water run down the walls for example and there was a war going on between between lease holders and renters of the houses and Mohamed was thinking about ways of finding ways of changing the laws for renting houses in order to improve the situation as well for the house owners as for the people living in them.
Do you think it's fair to say he had a strong sense of social justice?
Well yeah it was very very strong. It was a very obvious strong sense of justice yeah.
In terms of…?
Well in terms of that it was very critical on the high class approach you know the classes in Egypt they are I mean the people were well off they do not care for the daily problems of the poor people and there are many poor people in Egypt, especially in Cairo and he was interested in finding ways to give them a better life or to organise the city in the space in a way and also social structure in a way that these people would do better actually.
And how did he feel the Government was dealing with those issues?
Well the Government was dealing with it terms of self-interest. I mean the Government was dealing it in terms of profit which was naturally the state profit in tourism which was very important. The Government was dealing with it also in terms of probably rather traditional neglect of the popular interests actually and so there was no… you couldn't see at that time an attempt of the Government to seriously solve these sorts of problems. They were just trying to relocate them and to make things better for their own income and Mohamed was very critical of this and this was actually linked to a strong critics of the Government in not really taking an interest in the own people's fate anyway but just in their own … interest in their own political career and in their financial enrichment and for this they would like just to cooperate with anybody and there was also naturally the link to critics of the Egyptian Government working out, cooperating directly with the US.
Can I ask you about that specifically then. Did he talk to you about a concern about how close the Egyptian Government had become in terms of their interests and the interests of the United States?
Yeah I mean we had several talks on that and it was not only on a political scale that he was arguing against this approach of the US Government's political and financial influence in general in Egypt, it was also on a cultural level actually that he was objecting this.
What do you mean on a cultural level?
I mean they work differently in Cairo then they do for instance in Washington and there were actually always conflicts of interest because there were also people that were Americanised in Cairo and these were probably the elites because they went to the American University in Cairo and Mohamed was very critical of these people because he felt that … he was pretty right about this that they were very much …Alienated actually …
Alienated from…
Alienated from the general Egyptian public because they were a very small group but they were very influential and they were actually strongly pro American and dependent on American financing and trying to live in America and coming back and there was this sort of…
…cultural imperialism sort of…
Yeah but this was not only like imperialism the way that… Egyptians who were working for this, you see I mean. Cultural imperialism is not that one side … was presented. There were always local elites whose interest it is to strengthen this influence. So he was critical of this and there was this other history of the politics of when already Egypt opened to a strongly western influence and they had a liberalisation of the markets and they went away from the most socialist economic approach … and he was also critical of this because he thought that this sort of market capitalism was not a good solution for a country, as Egypt has a very big population and poor population would not have the means to afford everything in the market could offer…
He was opposed to the adoption of a more free-market capitalist approach that Egypt had taken?
Well I mean no, he was opposed to it and he was also pointing to details of it. For instance they were producing….strawberries. They were producing strawberries on the Egyptian fields which were not produced for the Egyptian market and were exported to Europe for instance, while at the same time they would have to import food for their own people, like wheat from the US, which he considered absurd. You know there was the old country being used for producing high class luxury products for foreign markets and then they had to again import nutrition from other countries at a certain price again actually to nutrify their own population. It was completely absurd.
And he talked to you about this?
Yeah I mean we were discussing this as well. I mean at a certain point I could point to this problem and he was upset about it actually. He considered it grotesque to do something like that.
Why grotesque?
Yeah because you see it would be much more logical to cultivate wheat in your fields instead of cultivating strawberries there which nobody can afford in Egypt anyway…
At the time that you were there, well both the decade before that but during the time that you went to Egypt there was a very heavy crack down from the Egyptian Government on Islamic groups…
Was that something you talked about at all?
I only remember that we, I think we had a talk on that of which I do not remember many details. It was a very short [conversation] but apparently Mohamed had also talked before that with Volker Hauth about this problem while this thing was going on, and both Mohamed and Volker Hauth were very critical actually about this, because it was very rude military action they were taking. They were really storming different parts of the Cairo city in order to fight different extremist groups, which was a sort sort of street war going on… a crack down. There was lots of troops being involved and I mean this is something you can only find scary when this… and he was also critical of that naturally because I mean he was though in favour of extremist Islamic groups but he was pretty much against such a state action against people who are apparently working in favour of the interests of the people living in the streets so it was always a social conflict … you see because it was these people in these extremist groups in these quarters they were working they were also like taking care of the social needs of the people which the State did not cope with.
And that's the reason he thought it was wrong of the government to crack down on them because they were providing social services?
Yeah because they would not replace these services by anything, by any other services so they would just crack down on the organisations and that's it.
Did he strike you as a passionate person?
Well he was in a way yeah, he was passionate but at the same time he was very, he was calm so he was a serious and calm person but when he got upset about something he became passionate.
What made him most passionate?
Well at that time I remember there were two things made him passionate. One was actually the ongoing war in Yugoslavia, the Bosnian War especially which he considered a war actually of one population against the Muslim part of the population and he didn't understand why there was no help by the so called International community to prevent this murdering from going on, and this he was always linking to the war going on or the process going on in which he was very critical of because he considered it selling out of the interests of the Palestinian people as what had happened in Oslo. And he also links it to what had happened during the second Gulf War when the International lines attacked Saddam Hussein and which he was not in favour of Saddam Hussein. That was very clear because he considered Saddam Hussein also a politician but he was not in favour of his people in any way but he would not understand, he was very very angry about the fact that the international community would gather in order to attack Saddam Hussein but they would not gather in order to prevent the Israelis attacking Palestinians. They would not gather for any other problem as the one in Yugoslavia he was very afraid that there was a very strong bias in these politics and that these politics were always in the interests actually of the US and he was very critical of that, and I mean he also criticised the UN of being a sort of organisation which would always at the end of the day would only do what the US would ask for and not, never do anything against the US or against Israel.
When you said there were two things, was that the second thing?
Well the one thing was the US influence actually in the Middle East, the other thing was the Yugoslavian civil war and these were very hot topics he'd get upset about.
Did you think of him as a particularly religious person?
He was very religious as many others are in Cairo so he was particularly religious in terms of people I know and also of friends I use to have later on in Cairo though I had some more actually who were also as religious but not… in another way then so he was, he was very religious. He prayed five times a day and he used to listen to on the radio or on the cassette and but that was actually something very normal. I met many other people who were very similar to him then … then I met him in '94 he wasn't as religious as he had become in summer '95 already as far as I can observe it looking back.
What you felt he had changed just in that period of time he'd become more religious?
Yeah it had become more obvious, he would more show it towards the outside that he was religious.
How could you see that?
I mean firstly he had grown his beard by these days actually which later he apparently shaved again but as he came back he had grown a beard which we are more or less supposed to do …because you're not allowed to shave. He kept this beard for some months later on which is also quite, quite usual for these people to do and well he was so in this course, in how he talked about… religion to me, but this might not have been that he had become more religious, but maybe we just got to know each other better. So he started to talk with me more confidently on these matters actually and we had several discussions on religion because he had a very very conservative approach to Islam which is not unusual I mean considering what you are teached in the State school system in Egypt and he was always very shocked when… I was interested in Islam as one of many different cultures existing on the planet and I was also trying to compare phenomena in one religion and the other and he was always upset at certain things, which words I used actually which were not appropriate in the proper Islamic diction so I was not allowed to say it this way because then it would be wronged. It would be sinned if it would be this way. It was for instance when I said that it is interesting that you have ways of speaking, uttering only texts which if you look at [ceremonies like] in the Catholic Church when you have this way of pronouncing in a certain melody, and you have it in Judaism and prayer and you have it also in other religions and you have it in Islam… and when you read Koran you have a certain… I mean the way you read Koran, which is something like singing. Well I made the mistake to say singing and then he got really upset and because naturally singing is not allowed in his interpretation of… because music's something sinful in order to distract people from the right path and so …
So when you …
Singing would have been a sin already and you can't sing Koran and it was these things we were discussing and for him I was a sort of person he could confront because I was a sort of example …because I was a European, a German who had studied Middle Eastern studies and Islamic studies and so I was for him an example of somebody who approached another culture but did not really understand what was going on, because I said it in the wrong way and he always felt the urge to explain it how it was to be understood so I could understand his point of view but still scientifically it was not mine you see and so we never found a common ground on these.
Do you think that he resented the way that western culture for the most part does not understand Islam?
Yeah I mean that was one of his basic problems I think and that made things also very difficult for him in the long run to live in Hamburg because as religious and conservative in his religion as he was, it was difficult for him to communicate to other people who would not know enough actually about these issues and so there was a lack of of exchange I think and so he necessarily had to become more secluded on these issues I think when living in Hamburg and I think he was suffering from this because he felt really alienated…from his surrounding.
And do you think in a way, do you think he resented it and felt that the West doesn't make the effort to understand?
I mean he was very explicit about that, I mean they deliberately did not want to understand. That was his interpretation rather because it they had a certain interest, when there was a interest in the Middle East it was of political or financial interest and it was not about an equal or balanced exchange, so it was something like knowledge in order to gain power not knowledge in order to understand which was pretty close to imperial studies…. I mean, he was aware of this but he being very conservative and also a sort of essentialist from his side. This is what I was criticising on him because I realised that he was sometimes taking the constructs which were actually constructed by, for instance, Orientalists and was now saying that this was typical Islam whereas in the meantime it was much more critically viewed already in within scholarly approaches to Islamic studies because they had found out actually that … I mean it was only [the] picture they had constructed, and [they] had not considered all the different aspects that were there, so I was critical about his approach that he had this sort of moralistic approach to Islam. So Islam for him was one thing and not something with many different opportunities and options to act and to create culture.
What particular aspects of conservative Islam stood out for you in terms of that critique that you're saying you had of…
Well I mean for instance when we come back to the urban planning thing he was … of the idea of an Islamic city and also of an Islamic house which is a construct of Orientalists from the 19th and 20th century and he considered actually the ideal Islamic city to have things like like narrow dead end roads that have court yard houses and all this which you might find in one city, not find in another. You might even find it in all Islamic cities so you see if the question, if it's really Islamic or if it is a result of some much more complex cultural historical development.
But he wanted cities to be this idea of Islamic?
Yeah this was the idea of Islam and he even would have favoured to recreate these spaces so he was also in favour of these attempts in Saudi Arabia to build Islamic cities where they would have modern architecture but with courtyards and dead end roads so they would build new Islamic cities, which structurally and socially, naturally were not Islamic cities as old because Islamic cities were much more self organising then central so it was odd to do it this way.
And structurally now, it would be very difficult to achieve and not particularly good to live in.
Exactly I mean this for him was a task that could be solved by architects and by urban planners so naturally he knew that there were problems about this but it was something he was eager to work on. I mean this was one of his interests because he considered this city more appropriate for the people and for their daily life culture to live in.
Was there anything about your lifestyle that offended him?
No I mean he was he was very tolerant of this because he accepted that I was not an Egyptian nor a Muslim so I wasn't and he had nothing to complain about in general because in Egypt otherwise I behaved, I adopted to manners so there was no strong conflict actually. There were no proper critics actually of my behaviour.
Did you… I wasn't suggesting you'd done anything in particular by the way. There was nothing I was trying to suggest there but did you meet his family at all?
I think I met his family once because his father came to fetch us from the airport when we arrived but that's it. I didn't see them later on and Mohamed was living at his father's, at his family's place actually in Cairo and Volker Hauth and we had rented a flat in another part of Cairo so we just met during the day and the evenings for work but not …
So did you form any idea about their relationship or…
Within the family you mean? No I mean it appeared to be very unusual family structure… I mean he had left the family because he went to Germany so I think he wasn't that much any more like only the son of the family but he had become more independent by the time when he came back and lived with the family but I don't know any details about how this created problems or how the father's attitude was towards the son. I don't know.
In terms of his life what made him appear to you a conservative?
I mean he would follow all the duties that he had to follow as a believing Muslim concerning daily lives. He went to pray. He didn't drink alcohol and he wouldn't mess with women and I also realised that he was even criticising women … who were veiled for not wearing it properly because they wear it in a way that made them more beautiful instead of protecting them from male's eyes so he was, that was very conservative. This is where you could sense it especially in these sorts of criticisms he was saying about other people.
You were just saying those areas in which you felt that Mohamed was sort of obviously to you conservative and you were saying that sometimes it was about the way the women wore the Hijab. Was that when you were in Cairo?
We were in Cairo yes. I mean what would happen was, he would see women wearing a Hijab, and Volker Hauth and me for instance we would realise that it's looking good actually how they, how they do it. It's nice actually. It makes them beautiful. Then he was like saying yes, or he would criticise them because he was saying they would not wear the Hijab probably because they would choose certain colours which were too chic and they would like wear it or wind it in a way around their head that it would maybe make them even more attractive and so that was not the way it was supposed to be; or he would sometimes even say for himself. I mean not generally would he walk through the streets and point to people saying they wore the Hijab the wrong way but it was just close to the topic we were just talking about it was, he'd mention it or refer to it but …
So did he ever show any interest in women when you knew him?
I'm not informed about this thing anyway so I mean apparently there was a story that had been going on the year before, because sometimes Volker Hauth and then Mohamed were referring to it, talking about it but I have no idea, no details actually about it so.
This might be an inappropriate question but did you ever tease him about when he would say look, women shouldn't do that. Did you ever tease him and say, oh don't be such a conservative?
Well yeah, I mean naturally I would say like comments… exaggerate I mean they wear it as they want I mean as long as they are following the rules and he wouldn't agree…
Did you ever go to the engineer's syndicate?
Yeah. Sure because we had to meet some people there. I don't remember the names anymore.
Did you get a sense of the politics that were around?
Well I mean we talked about these politics naturally because the engineering syndicate was one of those that was increasingly being influenced by fundamentalist movements, I mean it was not only the engineer's one but several different ones as well were one of the political instruments the conservative or fundamentalists Muslims were using in order to increase their influence on state politics or on municipality because it was an organisation that was rather basic democratic, so people could bring people into places and pose where they wanted to be and it was not centrally controlled, but there was as far as I remember lots of critics about these processes going on by that time. There were people that were very critical about this change of politics within the syndicate because there were actually also many other people, engineers within the syndicates who did not like the syndicate to be instrumentalised for such a political direction.
And what did Mohamed think about it?
Oh no Mohamed was in favour of this idea. I mean in favour of this change.
The increasing Islamisation of the syndicate?
Yeah he was in favour of that because he was in favour of having a larger, a better lobby for Islamic social ideas and these things, so for him this was one of the necessary and important means to achieve this goal.
So do you think they were an important influence in terms of his developing ideas…The political ideas that were focused in the syndicate?
Well I'm not sure you know that he was linked up to the syndicate in a closer way because he had studied and then he left Egypt so generally you only get in contact with the syndicate after you have finished studies, and you start working and since he hadn't worked at least not for a long time there was probably no real possibility for the syndicate influencing his views. He might still have received or read something about them, because it was always in the newspapers because there was this discussion going on, on this process and so there were comments and interviews with people who were in favour of this and who were discussing the ideas actually that were behind it, so he knew what it was about and actually he was, he thinking about this and so there might have been influence, because he read about it and heard about it, but no direct personal influence of certain people within the syndicate I don't…
Do you remember going, do you remember any conversations or meeting any people who were from that Islamic group when you went? Do you remember what was talked about or anything about going to …
No there was, there was nothing from this. I mean and all the organisations or planning offices we went to h had no link to such an approach so I never observed that kind of conversation.
When you went back to Hamburg after the trip to Cairo did you keep in touch?
Well we kept in touch for a while because we still had to finalise our research results so I mean I stayed longer in Egypt, then I stayed for six months, even more so I came back only in early Spring '96 to Germany and we met up in Hamburg then for a weekend in order to discuss what we had already written and to coordinate what still had to be written and afterwards I only had for a certain while indirect contact because Volker Hauth was sometimes telling me about what Mohamed was doing but also Volker Hauth lost contact at that time to Mohamed. So I had contact with Mohamed after Spring of '96.
Did Volker Hauth tell you about how he was getting on or whether or not he seemed to be getting more …
No he remarked one time that he was now working for a company in Hamburg and that he was still studying and working … and these things you know. Volker Hauth didn't see him much either anymore so … even Volker Hauth couldn't tell me about him.
And do you think that was a sign of anything the fact that not even Volker Hauth was seeing him anymore or…
No I didn't take it as a sign no. I mean I don't know. I mean by then I naturally didn't take it for any sign when I mean it was just… I mean I couldn't be a good friend of his because we simply didn't find lots of common ground. So I mean I found him a nice person and when we met I mean I could deal with him and it was OK and I also enjoyed it but a as I was not living in Hamburg I mean I didn't think about continuing a long term friendship.
And not enough common ground anyway?
Yeah.
Because…
Well because we had such different ideas about aspects of religion and culture so … that was actually made it difficult but politically I mean we sometimes shared the same ideas so it was… and he being critical of certain political processes in Egypt and the Middle East and it was like we were disagreeing on some and then agreeing on some so it was …
Did he ever talk to you about what he wanted to be? What he wanted to go on and become?
Yeah naturally, I mean he wanted to work as an architect and city planner in Cairo and he was very serious about it and hoped actually to be able to improve the situation and to find a place in the system where he would be able to influence the situation. Which naturally is not easy if you look at the structures which are pretty much controlled by …nepotism and so …
Did he feel that? That it would be hard?
Yeah I mean we talked about this problem also during our stay in Cairo. I mean he was aware of it before, and he got even more aware of it when we were there again and so I think in a way he was still hopeful. He still wished and hoped that he might find such work in Cairo but he was sceptical about the possibility of really changing things in Egypt and finding good and sensible work.
Because of…
Well because if you are critical of certain persons or certain political circumstances, if you don't know this and that person you will never get this sort of job that's why.
It's an obvious question but I want to ask I mean what did you feel when you opened the newspaper and saw his name.
I certainly wouldn't believe it. I mean I saw his picture in the newspaper. This is actually how it started, yes so we had this newspaper on our table and I looked at it. It was early in the evening and I seen this photo of a person on the title page and I was stunned because I thought, I know this person so I looked at it closely, it really looked like Mohamed El-Amir so I looked under the photo what was written there and it said it was a person Mohamed Atta who was supposed to have been the pilot of the first plane to crash into the World Trade Centre but there was no more information about this, and I didn't believe that it was him. I just thought maybe they made a mistake and they got this photo from somewhere or they took him for another person who apparently was linked to it or so I was looking for different explanations for how come this person I knew and which I would never expected to do such a thing could now be linked to this attack.
What happened then was that an hour later I got a phone call from Volker Hauth in Hamburg who had found out my telephone number via my parents and because we hadn't been in contact anymore since 98; and the moment that he called me I already knew what it was about because I mean there could be only one reason why Volker Hauth would now call me, and then I tried to find out when he was telling me that he had already contacted the police because he knew the person but he was also convinced that it couldn't have been him actually. He wanted to be in contact with the police in order to deliver proof that Mohamed is not the sort of person who would do a suicide attack and such a murder, and well this is how it started and I mean it took me quite a while because I was still also very sceptical about the whole idea of you know only Arab names listed as suspects actually…it was too outspoken.
The reaction was too outspokenly anti-Arab from the beginning. I mean from everything you would observe from the outside, you would not have the inside information and know the signs were clear enough, but this was also the reaction which was going around here. Maybe funny to say that everybody, all of my friends here they all, even people in the street I mean they were, many of them were really shocked, they wouldn't believe what was going on. There was only very few people who were like saying, I mean they hit the Pentagon and…very scared of what would happened afterwards because nobody knew actually who did it and then when the question, the question was obvious who did it and they all said it couldn't have been Arabs, never; because they wouldn't have the financial means, they wouldn't have the skills and…People wouldn't just believe that this was done by Arabs. Everybody hoped it was not the Arabs …because it would just make the situation worse and they all hoped, there were all these ideas that it was the Japanese Red Army who did it as a revenge for Pearl Harbour attack and these so everybody was constructing different solutions. All that it has been Osama who was behind it because I mean who would profit from this at all, and so people [found it very difficult] to believe what had been going on there.
And for you?
For me it was similar in a way, although I mean everything is speculation. We simply do not know what happened though, and from what happened then and how quickly actually research was focused on a certain group of Arab passengers in the plane I also found, I had this sense that there was interest behind it actually to focus on these sort of people and there was at least from what you observed from the press you had the, you got the impression that everybody was hoping in the US that it was the Arabs or the Muslims; whereas I and many other people here that would say that maybe it was an inner American thing because we all thought of Oklahoma I mean you know one of the biggest bombing was in the US was done by a US citizen and he had nothing to do with Islam so that was one of the very probable solutions that anybody had for the question like who was it? And then it was just like following what was going on and I started having these phone calls from journalists from places all over the world but …
What do you think now though? I mean have you in a sense come to terms with the fact that maybe the Mohamed that you knew did fly this plane?
Well I think it's difficult to really come to terms with it because the Mohamed I knew would not have done it so he must have changed a lot afterwards and I have no idea because I had no contact with him, what happened to him and when exactly and …
Do you think about that? What must have happened?
Yeah, naturally I think about it but I can't know. I mean I can't figure it out although from how I knew him, you know the only thing that I believe would have made him do such a thing would have been political reasons and not religious, because from a religious stand he was a very humanist person but he got really upset and extreme in his judgments when it came to politics and so I think it must have been something political rather, and maybe I think Robert Fisk actually he wrote an article these days in which he linked up and he made a very good remark which was that after Mohamed apparently wrote this testament of his, his last will was apparently written in April '96, exactly the month of the massacre when the Israelis bombed the UN Refugee camp in Southern Lebanon and several hundred civilians had died and there was no big published negative response to it. I mean Israel was like … don't do this again but nothing more happened. You can understand somebody being upset about this you know there might be a link really because…
The timing is such that… you believe there could have been a link. No one can prove it but…
The timing is such.
But you believe there could have been a link.
We can't prove it now anymore, because I mean who would tell us.
What did you think when you read the will?
Well I didn't read the will completely, but I found it odd. I mean I didn't understand it really. I mean some of the things were the usual and others were really a little bit weird but I do not know the details.
It just seemed strange to write it so early…
That is what surprised me you see. I mean it was when he wrote it in Spring 96, because that was still the time when I knew him or at least when I just had got out of contact with him and by that time you know he didn't appear to me as such a person who might feel the urge to write his last Will and this sort of last Will …I would have thought the thing to take much more time, to have been taken place later, so I was really surprised when they said that the last Will was written in '96.
As far as you know, was he ever a member of any Islamic Group?
Oh I have no idea. I don't know. I can't say. I mean he never talked about being a member of a group and I didn't observe him meeting people or going to the same places, or there was no hint of this actually. I mean he had like this this naturally this ex pat group in Hamburg he was, he was praying with which is a very normal thing for Muslim ex pats living in other countries because they have to join to pray, so I mean … has to be has to be done in a group and not alone, so this is why it is necessary for them to form a group to do it actually.
Was there ever anything about the decadence that there is in a city like Hamburg that you felt Mohamed ever expressed to you, sort of offended by the decadence of the West as exhibited in Hamburg or anywhere?
No I don't remember that he referred directly to such a thing. I mean it was rather indirectly of how he would expect a proper Muslim women to behave that maybe you could sense the critic towards, towards western ways of dressing maybe, of behaviour which he even would have, like in Egypt against women who were not wearing Hijab or wearing or carrying clothes like jeans or t-shirts - this was actually what he was referring to. I mean I only spent one weekend in Hamburg when I met him so I think because his critics were often not very much context related so he would not tell us about his critics, about life in Hamburg when we were in anther place. There was nothing like that. He maybe did but just didn't mention it to me.
So you don't remember times when he would talk an American movie or an American style of food?
No, no no there was nothing like that actually. I mean it was, he was not that anti whatever western in that way I mean … it was rather a thing of live and let live approach maybe that was behind it.
One of the extraordinary things about all of them was that they were able to do this, plan this for a number of years… Do you think he had that capacity to be able to lead a separate life?
Yeah I mean on the one hand… I mean there are like two questions. I considered him able to organise and to plan such a thing. I mean not because it is a crime but because he was good at organising and he was also a person who could lead other people so he could be a leader type of guy and take decisions and be [good] in organising things. The second part of the question is, could he do this in a secret part of life, which apparently he did. I don't… so he was able to do it, which you couldn't know before exactly because he was able to do it so…
How does that make you feel about you, you knew him.
Yeah I mean I ask myself, naturally if he was already this sort of person who would have done this, when I knew him or not but as far as I knew him then, he was not the kind of person, so this is why I say there should have been this change going on with him but it was surprisingly early as you said, that he already wrote this last Will in early '96; so there I naturally question myself, if he was already thinking about this things or planning something already or meeting people early on, but then he managed to do this without anybody of us remarking and it leads me to the question like how far can you know a person at all? It's if you think you know him already and you can judge in general his his kind of personality but I never had the impression by that time that he had a certain path or second or secret life.
At the other end naturally I didn't grasp the whole of his life which is very normal because I was new to the Egyptian contacts then; I mean there were many things strange to me or things that I had to get to know or understand and to learn what they meant and so I'm probably the wrong person to ask if he had a sort of life which I would not know about or understand. I mean this question could only be answered by a person from his surroundings, from his Egyptian surroundings, which would know how people would act in a normal way. Or if he had something which was conspicuous or…
But it does make you ask yourself how well can you ever know somebody?
Yeah actually it's not that I'm really suffering from this question because I still think that Mohamed … that I had understood or known him quite well or to an extent so I think I mean it's probably that he changed later on.
do you feel that in some ways you can understand, or speculate about the unhappiness that must have led someone to the despairing view of the world that you'd have to do something like that?
Well I don't think it was in isolation, if he was that isolated. I think I mean he was naturally able to communicate with people on a more daily level because he was working in this company in Hamburg and it was not that he was completely isolating himself there. So he was also doing things on his own and he was going to pray and he would not enter into religious discussions with people because naturally he would feel completely alone because he would be the only person having this [sort] of idea about his religion, and generally it's difficult to discuss issues of especially Islam and Islamic religion in Germany for instance or any western country because there are so many prejudices and before you can start to make people really understand what it is about, you're running into so many prejudices and people just won't stop actually believing the prejudices more than what you say.
So it is a very very difficult situation and it gets even more difficult when you are a religious person and I think this is why he surely wouldn't really talk about religion, which was apparently an important part of his life. He had a very 'disconservative' stand which was growing apparently more extreme, actually was isolating this, and he might have looked for other people he could share something with, but still, this way of isolation will not give a reason at least which I can understand, [why he would take such an action]. That would rather facilitate the impossibilities of planning it, but it would not be the reason for it.
Basically it speaks of frustrated rage.
Yes it's frustrated rage and frustration coming from very different origins, for very different reasons actually and I mean this is the only explanation I have for this. And as I said I could sense this sort of frustration and rage especially in in his political critics about what was going on in the world especially in the bias politics against Muslims, as he would have regarded it. We had these discussions also I remember once, that we talked about the role of the UN in the Iraq conflict and in Czechoslovakia and he was very [ ] in his criticism against the UN that it was outspokenly anti Islamic… interesting actually that somebody would consider the UN politics outspoken and anti Islamic, I tried to make him understand that it might appear, the politics might appear anti Islamic because they are guided by other interests, by countries which are not Islamic and so they just follow their interests and that the way to see it as something outspokenly anti Islamic is just the effect of somebody who was victimised by it and who feels that this is directed against him but it's just directed against nobody in particular. It's just in favour of their own interests but not against somebody and so I tried to convince him that he was taking actually the Islamic aspect as too important in this political game because it was not anti Islamic politics but it was if at all a pro American or pro capitalist country politic.
Could he see that?
Then third world countries, which in this part of the world happen to be Muslim countries fall victim too and this is the thing. I mean but no he didn't really see that.
He couldn't, didn't want to, couldn't...
Well I mean he saw my point and he was thinking about it, but he still was believing that there was something in what he had said or that there was actually these anti Islamic motives behind certain politics of the UN and the US.
That the UN was specifically anti Islamic?
Yeah. Not in everything they did but they were doing things which apparently were anti Islamic.
Rather than just pro western you mean?
Yeah, but this brings me to another sort of what I observed in the last weeks because in everything you could read in the newspapers and many things that you would hear on the radio would always see people looking for the motivations of what Mohamed did in his religion and everybody was trying to pin it down on the fact that they were Muslims doing this and I think this is completely off the track because these people did not do this because they were Muslims. The way probably they argued it or they were defending their motivations they were using, they were doing it within the Muslin discourse because this is the context they are referring to but the motivations, the reasons for it are not the religion is nothing which forces them to do something like this. To the contrary you would find the majority saying you know, you are forbidden to do this because they were innocent people killed and this is something which his not allowed especially from the [Islamic] point of view so it is political actually, in that it's political action and political motivation behind it and this can not be used to the fact you know that Islam has something about it which makes somebody a killer in a certain point of time; but it is rather like that world political structure has something about it which makes some people become killers at a certain point of time out of frustration. I think this is much more the point we have to look for if you ask why is a person like Mohamed Atta did something like this.
Volker Hauth Interview
Hamburg, Thursday 18 October, 2001
source: Four Corners, Monday 12 November, 2001 ABC TV
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/atta/interviews/hauth.htm
Liz Jackson interviews Volker Hauth, who knew Atta well during the years he studied in Hamburg, and accompanied him on several trips to the Middle East.
…Now the government tried to convert this very lively road to a pedestrian zone and they tried to push out the local population. They were obliged to live in one of the new cities which are built in Egypt. Our opinion was that these plannings were not the right way to take care of the specific structure you may find in the inner city of Cairo but it was quite difficult to tell this opinion openly.
Mohamed told us it may cause problems for him if we showed our professional opinions to open cause he wanted to, after studying in Germany, he wanted to return to Egypt and he wanted to work in Egypt and in Arabia. He always was, that was my impression, after what he said, he was always in danger of being criminalised. He was member of the syndicate of the engineers and as he told me, I asked him about fundamentalism and Islamism and he told me about the Muslim Brotherhood that many members of the syndicate of advocates and of engineers are members of the Muslim Brotherhoods.
He was no member of the brotherhood but by this I got the impression that the members of the brotherhood do not stand aside of the society they are more part of the intelligency of the population and Egyptian President or the Egyptian government tried to give the impression that all members of the Muslim Brotherhood are criminals and are people of less education or of mean education and like Mohamed Atta how he called Mohamed Al-Amir told me the opposite was real, was true…
And when you say he was concerned that he would be criminalised, why was that?
He told me about the daily practice of the government to criminalize people of a said opinion. Egyptian and especially the Egyptian President, Mubarak tries to give the impression that Egyptian is a democracy, is a free democratic country in the western sense of democracy and freedom but Mohamed told me that it was not possible to give or to tell open oppositional opinion. Most governors or most presidents of Egypt have belonged to the army before and from my own experience in the army, I have the impression people coming from the army have a look of black and white. There is nothing between. You have friends or you have enemies and in Egypt you either may have the same opinion like the government or you are an enemy of the government. The real opposition like you have in the democracies of the western states or in the western world, you can't find in Egypt. There is no real opposition and…I did not get the impression that these are true elections in a democratic sense.
Was Mohamed a member of the engineer's syndicate?
Yes, he was a member of the engineer syndicate. In Germany I am a member of the engineer's syndicate also. It's necessary to be allowed to work as architect, you have to be a member of the syndicate, even also in Germany like in Egypt. But he told me he was no member of the Muslim Brotherhood.
But he told you that he thought that there were particular problems for the Muslim Brotherhood in the syndicate or that they were an important part of the syndicate…
No. Members of the syndicate, or many members of the syndicates were members of the brotherhoods and most seemed from the opposite, most members Muslim Brotherhood were members of the syndicate of lawyers or advocates and engineers.
Did he talk to you about the crackdown that there was on the Islamists and particularly on the Muslim brotherhoods in those syndicates?
The manner, the Egyptian government used the expression fundamentalist, Mohamed told me was very superficial and schematic attempt to criminalise all people with opposite opinions.
Did he say that particularly within the Engineer's Syndicate, within the profession that he wanted to work?
No, no. This attempt to criminalize people was not concentrated on one of the syndicates, he told me it was a general problem of the Egyptian government to push away all people with opposite opinions and Mohamed was a very well educated person and he was a religious person and both people with religious orientation and people with a very high education all around the world may have opposite opinions than the government of the country they live in and by this he was in danger of being criminalised. Only by having a different opinion. This was my impression of what Mohamed told me.
And when you say a religious person, what do you mean?
I did not have the impression of being fanatic but it was a very strict religious orientation. He had his prayer five times a day and he practiced Ramadan. I don't know if he had taken part at the Haj, if he travelled to Mecca, he didn't tell me. But I didn't get the impression of being fanatic. He was very strict but not fanatic. You may know Muslims do not have any sense of humour concerning religion in the Christian religion, there is a special sense of humour concerning religion if you know Monte Python or attempts like this to have a new view on religion, in the Islamic religion, this is not possible.
Do you think he did have a sense of humour generally?
He had a sense of humour, yes we joked about governments, the Syrian government and we travelled together to Syria a year before and we joked about this. It was possible to laugh about, especially about politics.
Can you remember the first time that you met Mohamed?
Yes we met in a seminar about planning and building in development countries at the University and Mohamed was very interesting person for me cause I've been in Egypt and Palestine two times before and this was a good opportunity to get more informations and to get better impressions of this country I have travelled before. We began to work together at the end of 1994 and we prepared a journey to Syria to Aleppo where we studied life and structure of the old city of Aleppo. A very characteristic old city. It's comparable only with the old city of Cairo and these were the main interest of Mohamed, the traditional structure and the daily life, the mixture of traditional structure and actual daily life in these old Islamic inner cities of Aleppo and of Cairo because he was interested in the specific structure of these old cities. In former times, there was no separation of political and religious life in Arabia. In the western world, we have the separation of the political life on the one side and the religion on the other side and in former times, also in Europe, but in former times in Arabia, this was some kind of unity, Mohamed told me and these old cities and these Islamic old cities you get a very lively impression how the daily life may have been from the time. This was the main interest of Mohamed. He studied the German language with very much discipline and he spoke very fine or his knowledge of German language was excellent. I do not remember any specific hobbies but I think to have hobbies is a special quality of western life and it's a special quality of rich and handsome western life. In Arabian countries young people meet but do not have time and they do not have money for practicing hobbies like you have in the western world. The daily life is much more working or meeting friends and sitting together. It's not playing tennis or playing golf. That's part of the life of the so-called fat cats in the Egyptian population or young population you have different groups and the group with the highest income, are the so-called fat cats, these are families with narrow relations to the government. It's astonishing that people or persons belonging to the government in Egypt are also leaders or managers of national companies.
What did Mohamed feel about what you're calling the fat cats?
He told me about different groups of the population of Egypt beginning with the Infitah, Infitah means the opening of the Egyptian politics, to the western world. President Sadat began with this policy to open the economy to the western world and in this time a few families, especially families or clans increased their income and these families with the close contacts to the government of the so-called fat cats income of these families is absolutely incomparable to the income of, for example, of academics. If you know that in that a teacher of a high school earns about 350 German marks a month that are about 175 US dollars and other persons in Egypt may afford new Mercedes cars, there's a gap between the academic world and the world of the persons working in the industry or leading managing companies… the income of the poor people is incomparable maybe 50 dollar dollars a month or 100 dollars a month.
What did Mohamed feel or say to you about that gap between the rich and the poor?
He was not happy about the injust or unfair way of living and of distribution of a wellness and income. His idea was to have income for anybody to have the opportunity to survive with health and good education but many are a big part of the Egyptian population can't take part in the daily life of the better off and many people do not have the opportunity to give a good o education to their children. Many children have to work because they do not earn enough money and the interest of Mohamed and his professional work was to increase the circumstances of the poor people. This was my impression…. His first study was architecture and for architects all around the world, it's possible to make much money if you work for the better off but architecture is not only a technical science, it's also a social science and for this Mohamed continued his first study with studying urbanism and town planning because of his interest of social life.
Living here in Hamburg, he obviously experienced a western style of living, saw it directly. Did he ever talk to you about how he felt about a more western style of living, what he thought about that?
I do not remember exactly what he told me. He didn't take part in many affairs of the western world. He made some sports but most of the time he studied and he was in contact with Arabian friends. It was a strange world for him, a strange language. Strange daily life for a religious orientated person. Most of Germans are not used to pray and daily… I don't think he had many relationships to the German or to the western world. He studied the western world and he studied the policy, the democratic practices.
Do you think anything that the western world had to offer or has to offer appealed to him?
Yes I get the impression that he was interested in the German way. I don't know about his opinions of the American life, but that he was interested in the German way, the German attempt to spread or to distribute prosperity or to reach prosperity for all members of the community. For all parts of the population. That's an old principle… of the Muslim world that anybody may take part in the daily life that anybody has enough to survive that anybody has the opportunity to get educated. It's an idea of the Muslim or of the Islamic world.
I guess I also meant, did anything of the more hedonistic things that the western world has to offer appeal to him?
He was not interested in this I think. He was not interested in cars or in, no I don't remember this…
I mean movies, nightclubs
No, nothing at all.
Girls? Any of the things that the west, the freedoms that, a personal lifestyle that the west offers attractive.
I think freedom and the possibility to tell your opinion openly was of great interest for him or it was of big interest for him but all these good of the western world like you told me cars, girls, motor cycles, or things like that, he was not interested in.
Television, movies?
I don't know if he had a TV set. No I don't think so and I don't remember him going to the movie.
Ever?
Can't remember.
Music?
We spoke about music cause I'm interested in music and I like playing music and he told me for Muslims it is not allowed to listen to music or to enjoy music in the way people from the western world enjoy music because of the impact of music. If you have a look to the young people dancing, very loud music, the impact is comparable to the impact of drugs and this is not allowed to Muslims.
And what did he think that that music might make them do or feel?
It may have the impact of a sedative or the opposite impact of … stimulants and the stimulation of Muslim or other the root and the base of the stimulation of the Muslim is the belief.
It sounds such a strict way to live.
Yes. He lived in a much more strict way than person from the western world, that's right. But that doesn't mean that he couldn't enjoy anything. He enjoyed sweets or he enjoyed laughing, walking around meeting friends, meeting, being in company with friends. That's one of the joys of Arabian people. Arabs do not like to be alone like western people.
Did you meet many of his friends here?
We met some of his friends on the street and he told me this is so and so and we shook hands and changed some words but I do not remember or any of his friends. Also in Egypt we met some friends on the street but we did not get in close contact with his friends.
Did you feel close to him?
Yes.
What do you think was the bond, what was it that made you feel close to him?
My religious orientation is not as strict as his orientation, his religious orientation was but I think the interest in religious ideas, my interest in religious ideas was some kind of bridge to his religious opinions and to his religious practice. People with strict religious practices and religious orientation, a traditional religious orientation is quite difficult to get in contact with people who do not have an idea of religion and many of the other students did not have an idea of religion.
And that was a bond between you?
Yes. I think so.
How long did you know him for?
We met in 1993 and the last time I met him was about 1996 or 1997.
Can you remember the last time that you saw him?
We met in the street or in the bus, some kind like that and spoke only shortly. We hadn't seen for some month and I didn't get the impression of a change or something like that.
But what happened, how come you didn't see him again?
My study finished and in Germany when a student's work, they study and they work and the same time and in the later semesters if you're near to the diploma you do not go to the University daily….Some of the students go to the university only once a week or two weeks and then I change my flight, first I lived in Hamburg and then I changed to the northern part of Hamburg and by this we didn't meet like we met before.
Were you surprised that you had no contact at all? I am curious because you were close and he was still here till the year 2000… you seemed to have some sort of bond and good strong discussions about religion and politics so that's why I ask, it just seemed like, to suddenly end … perhaps you might have been a big loss for him in terms of someone that he could relate to.
Maybe. It was not a sudden loss….We worked together until 1996 but we worked not very closely. We had to write a report about the time in Cairo but we did not meet as often as before because we both had to work and by this our ways went aside…
Was there a period of time in which over a period of time, did you think that he changed in the kind of person he was from when you first met him?
When I first met him about 1993, he did not wear a beard, and in about 1995, end of 1994, suddenly he had a beard and I also have a beard and by this I asked him what about your beard and he told me all people wearing a beard in Egypt are thought to be fundamentalists and due to this in solidarity with all people criminalised in Egypt now. He wanted to wear a beard also. He didn't want to hide his personal opinions, religious people have a beard in Egypt and if you do not want to be criminalised or if you don't want to have problems, you can't your beard but Mohamed told me … he wanted to show his opinions freely, openly and he didn't want to hide his opinions. That was one of the qualities I liked and I didn't get the impression of Mohamed being a sleeper, a so-called sleeper. In the years I met and I knew him he was not, or he didn't act like a sleeper. He showed his opinions openly, we spoke about politics, we spoke about the western world. He showed his scepticism about the western world, we spoke about Israel and the Israel politics and also here he showed openly his scepticism and his critique and I did not get the impression of Mohamed trying to hide anything.
When you say his scepticism about the western world, what do you mean by that?
There was one example I don't remember the year exactly but once a western nation, I'm not sure if this was America or European nation, sent a ship with rubbish to Egypt and Mohamed told me he didn't like this. That the rich western nations exported their rubbish to the poor Arabian nations. This was one example of critique and I think the critique was just and fair. We spoke about the politics of Israel and the USA or the symbiotic relationship of Israel and the USA and he was very unhappy not to be allowed to visit Jerusalem. For a Muslim Jerusalem is one of the holy places and as Egypt he was not allowed to visit this holy place and he was quite unhappy about this cause I told him I have been there twice.
Did he feel strongly about the Palestinian issue?
I asked him about the problem, it was not him talking about it and he was not happy about the politics of Arafat he did not like the attempt to find a way or the attempts Arafat made cause he had the impression that Arafat gave away too much.
He thought Arafat compromised too much?
Yes. That was his impression, that's also my impression.
So he was in a sense more hardline than Arafat?
I won't call him a hardliner
I thought I might have used the wrong word. Do you think he was a person who liked a compromise?
Yes, that was one of his main qualities to find compromise, to communicate. I have got one image if the right door is closed, he tried to use the left door. There's no way on the right side, you have to take the left side to reach the target and I travelled with him in Syria and in Egypt and I got the impression that his capability of communicate with different people was extremely good.
At some point when he was in Hamburg, something must have happened, do you take that view and if so is there anything now that points to you about when that was?
Being asked of any or for any explanations of what happened in New York, and the first moment I thought of the visit of Ariel Sharon visiting the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. By this he threatened a holy place of the Islamic world and threatening or damaging a holy place is a sacrilege and it may have been answered by threatening and damaging the holy place of the western world and from the view of an Arab, from the view of a Muslim, the World Trade Centre in New York is a holy place for the western world and this may be or this may show an interrelationship and this visit of Ariel Sharon giving fire to the oil or burning the oil may have been the last drop, the water overflowing.
Did Mohamed ever talk to you about what he really wanted to do, like what were his dreams?
Yes he told me he wanted to work for an international organisation of corporation and development because in being member of an international organisation, he wouldn't have been in danger of being imprisoned, he wanted to work in Egypt, he wanted to work in Arabia as a planner, as an urbanist, but he wanted to be saved of being criminalised. And this was his dream to work in Egypt.
He had a real fear that he would be put in prison for his religious strengths?
No it was not the fear of being imprisoned but it was a fear not be allowed to say what he meant and for well educated person, it's some kind of torture not to be allowed to tell what your confessions are. You know about the so-called inner exodus, many persons living in a country with a very restrictive political systems, live in the so-called inner exodus, they don't tell what they think but they can't make him happy any day than Mohamed wanted to live in Egypt, he wanted to live in Arabia and he wanted to become happy. And not being allowed telling or showing the inner opinions, not having the opportunity to show the professional knowledge he had would be some kind of torture.
Did he think that he would ever be able to realise and do what he wanted to do, did he ever talk about his fear of not being able to realise and do what he wanted to do?
No he didn't tell this.
Being frustrated?
I got the impression of depression that I think that's a special quality of many academics or of the intelligentsia of Egypt.
When you say depression, what, what was it about to him that made you say that?
The problem of the academic world in Egypt and the problem of Mohamed was that in Egypt it causes problems to show your confessions, to show your knowledge, your professional knowledge openly. In Egypt I get the impression that many academic people or people of academic education are very depressed and in Egypt you have an exodus of academics. Many academics of Egypt would like to leave the country to work in other countries to have a job and to work concerning to their beliefs and to their knowledge and not always thinking of what hasn't the government told us and what have I tell now not to get in conflict with the government or the police.
So it was a general thing rather than a feeling that he was, was there anything about his manner that made you feel he was depressed, frustrated, angry?
I don't think it was special quality of or a symptom of Mohamed, it was a general problem of Egypt that people were not like that it causes problems to show knowledge and confessions of ….
Did you meet his family when you were there?
We met the father at the airport. He took us to the flat where my German colleague and I lived and we met two aunts in Kafir el-Sheikh where Mohamed comes from but I didn't meet the mother and the sister.
Some people have said to us that it was a very high achieving family and that his father had big expectations of Mohamed. Did you ever have that impression, did he ever talk to you about having in some sense to live up to his father's expectations?
No, we didn't talk about this. His father had different profession and professional prospective of advocates and architects or planners are incomparable.
I want to ask you about something, I'm sure you've been asked about it many times, in terms of any interest that he had in women, I understand there was one time when you were with him in Aleppo, can you tell us about that time?
No, I don't want to repeat this.
Because you don't think it's true or…?
No. It's of few words, it was lean mean, mean value. He wanted to have a family, I get the impression and he did not have a girlfriend, but he told me, I asked him about a girlfriend and he told me in Egypt his family and the family of a young lady, thought of starting a relation…but and I told him about a relationship, about being married and he told me it was not yet time to get married….His interest was to study and to finish his studies first and then to have a family. I get the impression he wanted to have a family.
And in the meantime he thought that having girlfriends was not appropriate?
No in Arabia the life of young people is totally different from the life of young persons or young people in the western world, it's not that the way like young men and young ladies or young women, the western world may meet in a café or stayed together for a night or so in Egypt it's more strict. You are not allowed to meet a girl you're not married with and the religious orientated families and by this Mohamed had no idea of having a girlfriend.
There was no idea of getting in contact with a young girl or a young lady in the western sense.
When it became more and more apparent that it was in fact Mohamed who had flown the plane into the World Trade Centre, what did you think must have happened to the Mohamed that you knew?
For a long time I couldn't imagine that Mohamed had taken part in this terroristic act and also now I didn't find a reason, an exact reason, you can't find any exact reason for what happened but there are no clear hints which may lead to this what happened. His personal bitterness and depression are no sufficient hints for this act. There are no hints or you may try to have an explanation but I couldn't find a sufficient explanation for what happened and for Mohamed taking part in this act even.
Did he ever talk to you about America?
Maybe, I couldn't remember a specific situation talking about Americans, he didn't show any fanaticism against America, his critique and his scepticism was orientated against the separation of the Egyptian population which means that the western style of living gets in contact or confrontates with the traditional way of living but that's an inner Egyptian problem or he gave the impression that he was interested in the Egyptian life, the daily life and the threatening of the traditional life by western ideas.
So you felt that in some sense the west was invading culturally invading or taking over the Islamic way of life?
Yes. That's daily life in Egypt.
Did he speak to you about that?
We spoke about that, yes. The industrial nations do not only export cars or tanks or things like that, they do not only export rubbish, they also export their way of living. It's quite opposite to the traditional way of living in an Islamic country or is in an Arab country.
And do you think Mohamed resented that?
Mohamed was not very happy of this cause the western kind of living and the traditional way of living, there is no co-existence, it's a confrontation in Egypt. If you tried to live in the traditional way you get problems. You get many points and you will be confrontated. If you built houses in the traditional way, you touch the interests of the industry who tries to sell the western products of modern building and you will find many examples of confrontation of the traditional way of living on the way side and the western way of living on the other side. And these are not only problems of religion, these are also problems of technique and problems of money. If you try to find solutions, therefore daily life, if you try to find cheap techniques for daily life of the bigger part of the population, you threaten the interest of companies, of western companies to sell expensive techniques, for example air condition or things like that.
And did he talk to you about things like that?
Yes we spoke about this because planning towns, planning houses means to discriminate between modern technique and old technique. You have to think about costs and the modern technique is much more expensive and many are a big part of the Egyptian population can't afford the western techniques and by this big part of the Egyptian population can't take part at the daily life.
What do you think when people just say anybody who did that must just be mad, must be a psychopath?
I think that's right. You can't find intellectual explanation for what happened. You can find an explanation for depression and you can find an explanation for bitterness and sadness but you can't find an intellectual explanation for this terroristic act, something in the mind must have changed totally that any intellectual thought has been switched off. That's my opinion.
So that must be what happened.
I think so. It's a psychological problem or individual psychological problem led to a very narrow view of the world. May have led to a very narrow view of the world which has come closer or which may have been focussed on an attempt to solve problems by such terroristic acts.
He never talked to you about people resorting to violence, he never discussed with you terrorism?
No, Mohamed was a very peaceful person searching for justice and I didn't ever get the impression that violence was a manner of or was a medium of reaching targets.
But he never referred to other acts, mean of say Palestinians suicide?
No, and by this I couldn't imagine that he took part this terroristic act.
source: TIME news by John Cloud Sunday, Sept. 30, 2001
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,176917-1,00.html
Before we get to his dislikes and disorders, his vexations as a child and his entanglements as an adult, let's poke inside Mohamed Atta's brain the night before he helped slaughter 7,000 people. "You have to remind yourself to listen and obey that night, for you will face situations that will require your obedience 100 percent," reads a letter found in Atta's luggage and in the belongings of two other hijackers. Atta would be happy to know that his evil was steadfast.
Though investigators are still excavating the hidden trails that led to Sept. 11, many point to Atta as the linchpin of the 19-man hijacking gang. From Hamburg, Germany, to South Florida to Las Vegas, Atta crossed paths with at least seven other hijackers. While some of these terrorists were barely out of their teens, Atta turned 33 days before the attacks. He seems to have been the center of gravity, the dour and meticulous ringleader. This is the story of how his malevolence was unleashed.
In Egypt, where Atta grew up, his family and friends describe a shy, unassuming young man who struggled to make his mark. They say he must have undergone a stark personality change to become the terrorist who supervised Sept. 11. Born in Kafr El Sheikh, a city on the Nile delta, Mohamed was the son of a lawyer and a homemaker. As a kid, his father says, he liked to play chess and disliked violent games. He was a scrawny youth--only 5 ft. 7 in. and until recently quite thin. (His dad called him "Bolbol," Arabic slang for a little singing bird.) Atta seemed overshadowed by his two sisters, who rose to become a zoology professor and a medical doctor. Atta graduated from Cairo University with a degree in architectural engineering and was an average student, according to his peers.
Atta made a few friends in school, but he was such a loner that when a classmate, Iman Ismail, drew a caricature of their class, she depicted Mohamed standing next to a sign posted on Egyptian military fences: COMING NEAR OR TAKING PHOTOS PROHIBITED. When it came to politics and religion, topics no Egyptian can avoid, he offered mainstream opinions. His friends don't remember ever seeing him pray, and they recall his harsh words for Islamic terrorists--"brainless, irresponsible people."
Which is why several of his Egyptian classmates could not accept his guilt in interviews with TIME. "I could never imagine him on a plane threatening people, killing people," says Ahmed Khalifa, 33, Atta's best friend at Cairo University. "He would be scared to death... He was not a leader. He had his opinion, but he was modest in everything. His emotions were steady, and he was not easily influenced or swayed. Mohamed was well liked because he never offended or bothered anyone." Says Ismail: "He was good to the roots."
But he had what could be interpreted as some ominous undercurrents. Atta could get exercised by the world's shortcomings, big and small. He spoke out impulsively against injustice. He was so sensitive that he could become emotional if an insect was killed. "He was a little bit pure," says Khaled Kattan, another classmate. "If he thought that I said or did something wrong, then he would say that in front of anybody."
Atta's father could be quite strict, according to friends. In interviews since Sept. 11, Mohammed El Amir, has denied that his son was involved in the attacks. "He is a moderate in his adherence to his faith like me and his mother," El Amir has said. But El Amir's politics suggest that Atta learned a few things about the world from his father. In a press conference last week, El Amir heatedly blamed the Israelis for the attacks and called the U.S. "the root of terrorism."
Cairo is one of the world's most crowded, impoverished cities, and by the early '90s, Atta felt the intense pressures on middle-class Egyptians not to slip in social rank. His friend Khalifa says Atta grew frustrated because he was unable to fulfill his academic ambitions in his homeland. He believed that political favoritism at Egyptian universities would keep him from the top spots.
So in autumn 1992, Atta enrolled at the Technical University of Hamburg-Harburg, in a sleepy corner of northern Germany. He hoped to earn a degree in urban planning and then return to Egypt. In 1993, he befriended fellow student Volker Hauth, and the two often traveled and studied together in the next few years. Hauth liked Atta but sensed a rigidity in his friend. "I knew Mohamed as a guy searching for justice," Hauth told the Los Angeles Times. "He felt offended by this broad wrong direction the world was taking."
In the mid-'90s, Atta began disappearing from school for extended periods. He would tell his thesis adviser that he was going to Aleppo, Syria, to work on his thesis. (It explored the conflict between Islam and modernity as reflected in the city's planning, and it won high marks when completed in August 1999.) Atta was away from his job at a Hamburg consultancy for months in 1995; he reportedly said he had gone on a pilgrimage to Mecca. Co-workers recall him condemning terrorist attacks on tourists in Egypt. But he also bemoaned Western influence--specifically, the rise of skyscrapers--in Arab cities.
From mid-1997 to October 1998, Atta seems to have disappeared from Hamburg entirely. He told his thesis adviser that he was gone for family reasons, but it's clear that he underwent profound changes during this time. He returned to school with the bushy beard favored by fundamentalists. He was more serious. Hauth, who left the university at the end of 1995 and lost contact with Atta, told the London Observer his friend could laugh at jokes about Arab dictators. But Chrilla Wendt, who knew Atta after he returned, said she couldn't remember him smiling.
Atta had grown more sullen about his life prospects. His old friend Khalifa ran into him on a Cairo street one day in 1999. He found Atta depressed about not having a career or a family back home. Atta said he had made few German friends. "I think he felt that he had just been studying all those years," Khalifa recalls. "When I said goodbye, I was sad."
German authorities now believe that sometime that year, Atta began touching base with a wide range of people connected to terrorism. They point to his association with a Syrian businessman, Mamoun Darkazanli, who had power of attorney for a German bank account in the name of a man thought to be Osama bin Laden's finance chief. Darkazanli denied any ties to terrorists last week.
Whatever Atta was doing behind the scenes, he was publicly spreading the word of the Koran. Early in 1999, university officials gave him permission to found an Islamic student group. (Investigators believe he eventually met hijackers Marwan Al-Shehhi and Ziad Samir Jarrah in the group.) The 40 or so members gathered to pray every day. The moderate boy from the outskirts of Cairo had grown devout, and he was surrounding himself with like-minded compatriots.
At the end of 1999, Atta, Al-Shehhi and Jarrah reported their passports stolen, possibly to clear any record of travel to Afghanistan. Within weeks, Atta and Al-Shehhi flew to the U.S. for a visit. Even at this early date, Atta may have been planning an air attack. Sometime in spring 2000, Atta--now a clean-shaven cartoon version of an American in Tommy Hilfiger and heavy cologne--walked into a U.S. Department of Agriculture office in Homestead, Fla., and inquired about loans for buying crop dusters. The office doesn't offer such loans, and it turned him away.
Atta returned briefly to Europe, but on June 3, 2000, he arrived in Newark, N.J., from Prague with a six-month tourist visa. Within a month, Atta and Al-Shehhi signed up for flight training at Huffman Aviation International in Venice, Fla. When the two men moved into a little pink house in nearby Nokomis, they brought sweets to their rental agent. Their Venice landlady, Dru Voss, says that while Al-Shehhi was a likable guy, Atta was an icicle who never looked her in the eye.
Atta and Al-Shehhi were eager students. Together they paid Huffman some $40,000 for about four months of training. Huffman owner Rudi Dekkers took an immediate dislike to Atta, the smaller man. Dekkers recalls that Atta once told him he had lived in Germany. Dekkers then launched into German, but Atta just turned away. Neither Atta nor Al-Shehhi socialized with the other 15 to 20 students.
Atta's tourist visa expired on Dec. 3, 2000, but no one seemed to notice (one of several lapses in immigration procedures that aided the hijackers). On Dec. 21, Atta and Al-Shehhi got their pilot licenses. About a week later, they trained for three hours each on the Boeing 727 simulator at Simcenter Inc. at Opa-Locka Airport, outside Miami. By that time, the two men, who called themselves cousins, had each logged about 300 hours of flying time. They were still beginners, but they knew enough to maneuver an airborne plane.
Around this time Atta and other hijackers purchased global-positioning devices known as GPS-3s from Tropic-Aero, an aviation-supply shop in Fort Lauderdale, Fla. These $475 devices, about the size of Game Boys, are used by pilots to navigate. Says Jerry Carbone, Tropic-Aero's president: "It's so simple to use, you and your wife would be able to find your way in a 767 once it's up. It's sad if [the hijackers] were able to use something anyone can get at K Mart."
In January of this year, Atta hopped a flight from Miami to Madrid. It's unclear why he went, and when he returned to Miami International Airport on Jan. 10, he was allowed back in the country despite his expired visa. He didn't bother to list his flight or carrier, yet sailed through immigration. The next month, Atta and Al-Shehhi rented a single-engine Piper Warrior from a Gwinnett County, Ga., flight school. Like many other pilots, they were honing their skills. Atta inquired again about crop dusters--this time in Belle Glade, Fla. He and some men with him wanted to know how much fuel and chemicals the yellow 502 Air Tractors could carry and whether special skills were needed to pilot them.
On April 26, Broward County sheriff's deputy Josh Strambaugh stopped Atta for a traffic violation. Atta didn't have his license with him and was given a citation. He did not show up for his hearing, and on June 4 a warrant was issued for his arrest. But it was too late. By this time, Atta and his men were moving every couple of months, drifting from one low-rent dwelling to the next. Nearing the final stages of their plotting, they had become very careful. They kept to themselves and seem not to have even attended a mosque. Only occasionally would somebody notice them. One observer was Jim Woolard, owner of a World Gym in Delray Beach, Fla., who recalls Atta as "driven" on the weight machines (perhaps one reason that the folks back home would have trouble recognizing the newly beefy Atta in photos released after Sept. 11).
On June 29, Atta traveled to Las Vegas, where he stayed in a cheap room, with the DO NOT DISTURB SIGN constantly dangling from the door. While in town, investigators told the Associated Press, he met with two other hijackers, Salem Alhazmi and Hani Hanjour. His Hamburg pals Al-Shehhi and Jarrah were also there, which suggests a planning session. Four of the five men were on separate flights on Sept. 11, and one theory is that the four leaders of the four hijacked planes were there to work out final details.
On July 9, Atta made another trip to Madrid. He spent 10 days in Spain, running up 1,250 miles on his rental car. His time there remains murky, but last week six men suspected of belonging to a group financed by bin Laden were arrested in Spain on charges unrelated to Sept. 11. Investigators are tracing Atta's steps to see whether he met with them.
Atta returned to the U.S. on a business visa. He made another quick trip to Las Vegas but spent most of his time in Florida. Sources have told TIME that in the 10 days before Sept. 11, Atta received at least two wire transfers of money from a man investigators have linked with bin Laden. But the last days weren't all business. On Sept. 7, Atta, Al-Shehhi and another man visited Shuckum's Oyster Bar and Grill in Hollywood, Fla. Contrary to earlier reports of his carousing, Atta was the only one of the three who didn't drink alcohol. Instead, he downed cranberry juice all night, sugary fuel for the pinball machine--Golden Tee '97--that he played for 3 1/2 hours.
When Atta brought hell to the north tower of the World Trade Center, when he perished in the flames and had his picture beamed around the world, friends back in Egypt were dumbfounded. They looked and looked again at the photos, trying to find the kid they once knew. "To fly a plane, what a joke! Mohamed could hardly ride a bike," says classmate Osama Abul Enein. "He came from an average middle-class background. Mohamed no way could have done that," agrees Ibrahim Salah, 33, a Cairo engineer who knew him in college.
But he did. How does someone change so much? Experts point out that extremist groups in the Muslim world have been attracting an increasing number of recruits who grew up comfortably. "Just because you are educated and travel does not mean that you cannot join a militant organization," says Hala Mostafa, an authority on militant groups at al-Ahram Center for Political and Strategic Studies in Cairo. "Terrorists should be illiterate or primitive? Not so."
Which still doesn't explain what happened to Mohamed Atta. "Let each find his blade for the prey to be slaughtered," reads a passage of the letter found in Atta's luggage. How Atta found his blade may never be known.
Ralph Bodenstein Interview
Beirut, Monday 15 October, 2001
source: Four Corners, Monday 12 November, 2001 ABC TV
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/atta/interviews/bodenstein.htm
Liz Jackson interviews Ralph Bodenstein who studied urban planning with Mohamed Atta at the Technical University of Hamburg-Harbug. He met him in 1994, when they, along with Volker Hauth, began working on a project in Cairo that was sponsored by the German government.
When did you first meet Mohamed?
Well I met him first at the end of 1994, he was studying in Hamburg…together with a colleague of his, Volker Hauth and they had prepared a project which was research to be done on plannings to be implemented or planned at least in the historic core of Cairo on the effects of traffic plannings and urban plannings on the social and urban situation and they had presented this project as a project for…a sort of non-governmental organisation but a big one who are very much interested in the exchange of scientists and of scholars that should be on the one hand between the US and Germany, on the other hand between Germany and third world countries and the program we were in was actually this program for the Third World countries which was sort of development politics program therefore, trainee program actually for young people from Germany to go into Third Eorld countries and to work with MDOs there and stuff like that so Volker Hauth and Mohamed El-Amir as he was called by then had developed this idea to make this project where they were looking for a third person to actually to come with them and I joined them in because I was doing Middle Eastern studies, urbanism and history of Islamic art.
I was studying it in Bonn actually so I joined them…and we did the preparation course together. This was actually the end of ’94 and went on until summer '95 and in August '95 we all left together for a three month field research period in Cairo.
So you worked together for about nine months?
I mean we went, you see these preparation courses they were just like a prolonged weekend every two months…like it was the first in December and then there was another one in February, another one in May something like that so it was only three courses. This is where we met for some days and we really were together then actually in Cairo for the first three months.
Tell us about the work in Cairo.
On the one hand we had to do field research on the ground in the … old town of Cairo, actually a specific area, all the area north of University, this is where we were working on, which are the northern city gates of historic Cairo and we were doing field research there actually on the economy on the ground. So actually what sort of craft and industry was there, of the traffic that was actually necessarily to supply them and to to get away the stuff they could use on the traffic actually of planes that were coming and going because it is not only a tourist site. Actually it's only the smallest part of Cairo which is really has been discovered by the tourist. The other part is just too far off or it's too popular actually for tourists to go there and we were mostly in these areas and … visiting factories and on the other hand we visited several planning offices as well from the municipality and the other state as well as private planning companies who were working for different projects of the state or of the municipality, and we looked at what they were actually planning in order to resolve problems; what problems did they actually see and how did they face them and deal with them. We tried to analyse actually the effects of these planning systems that were implemented on the existing social and economic structures and material structure of the story core.
What did Mohamed think about the kinds of plans that that the Egyptian Government or the tourist office had in mind for that particular area?
You see it's a little bit ambivalent to give a general judgment on that, because on the one hand there was this problem actually, of that there were many plans which just dealt with the issues in the interest of enforcing tourism in Cairo because one of the main state incomes actually for Egypt is the money which comes in from tourists, and so they pretty much concentrate on fostering tourism in Cairo as well which until then was not such a favourite place for tourists to stay so all these plans were pretty much concentrating on how to improve the situation for tourists and they did this by means of slowing the factories and the small scale industry which was there in the inner city and also by changing the physical environment like tearing down houses and trying to reconstruct historical structures that had been there before, now on the other hand you have the problem that these industries were also not in favour of the historical structures because if you've got aluminium factories in the city they only came there twenty years before. Before that they hadn't been there so they actually they just went in because it was a cheap place to set up a factory and it was central so you could easily deliver your clients to different parts of Cairo which made it actually a very important economic area which was cheap concerning rents and places but it was very effective in terms of space, and this was not in favour of historical monuments in the area. But on the other hand, many of the population, most of the people living there they were depending on these economic structures: they were working there and living there and it was very close for them so they had no transport costs… essential was the very low wages people are paid in Egypt so they were really depending on the fact that they did not have to come and go from a suburb to and from Cairo and paying buses and micro buses fees but they could just go walking or take a bicycle. So that was actually the general dilemma which every planning was facing there but what happened was that most of the plans that we dealt with and that we found were completely neglecting the social problem by just sending the people away and that's it. I mean they did not try and find other solutions for them. It was like clearing the space off of this industry, of the people and make it nicer for the tourists and so naturally I mean it wasn't only Mohamed but also Volker Hauth and me were very negative about this way of dealing with with the people living in the city …
What did he say to you about it?
We were discussing all this issues and he was naturally saying that he was aware of the fact, that actually these industries were not good for the historical city core but on the other hand [look at the] social programs if you were really to take people to other places, you should also create work for them in these places which certainly did not work, they did not do this and so he would have preferred to only bring out the most dangerous or the most problematic industries which had the highest pollution rates and to keep the other small industries which just had high noise emissions which were not so problematic actually and that was rather the more moderate approach that he would have voted for, but it was not in the plans. But they also wanted to break through … into the city core so they would ease the traffic flow and with this, this would have also brought down lots of historical structures. Mostly what we talk about is buildings from the 18th and 19th century which were still standing there and which when actually compared to a… mosque from the 14th century is not considered to be a valuable structure, and so then it's just brought down and that was also very problematic because we found that this would only increase the traffic flow in certain areas but it will not stop people from going there so it would just relocate the problem but not really solve it.
So when you talked amongst yourselves what was his feeling and your feeling about the way the Egyptian Government viewed those people who lived in that area and what importance should be placed on their right to live and work.
Yeah I mean he was criticising this complete ignorance of the social problems… because he was much more in favour of a more social approach to such an area in general in urban planning- that was one thing. On the other hand he also had a very strong interest in preserving the historical architectural structures which were witness to the history of one of the capital cities of the Islamic empires…. different centuries and has very beautiful and excellent architecture actually. It's extraordinary, actually it has changed a bit now but at that time it hadn't been really taken care of. There was more money put into excavating sites instead of renovating mosques and so there naturally was a need to do it and he was also pretty much in favour of that solution to preserve the city as it was actually grown and had grown throughout the centuries and to stop it from being completely transformed by houses like 19th century houses being brought down and high rises being built because this was what was going on. He was also very interested in the aspect of the rent, of these contracts, because of the fact that the rents hadn't been written for several decades, because there were several laws for renting, but the fact that the people living inside the houses they would not have the money to take care for a house and the owner wouldn't have it either because the income he got from the rent wasn't high enough; so the owners have an interest to let the houses run down and they did sometimes on purpose, so that the people would have to leave because the house was in such a bad state that you could not live there any longer. So they let water run down the walls for example and there was a war going on between between lease holders and renters of the houses and Mohamed was thinking about ways of finding ways of changing the laws for renting houses in order to improve the situation as well for the house owners as for the people living in them.
Do you think it's fair to say he had a strong sense of social justice?
Well yeah it was very very strong. It was a very obvious strong sense of justice yeah.
In terms of…?
Well in terms of that it was very critical on the high class approach you know the classes in Egypt they are I mean the people were well off they do not care for the daily problems of the poor people and there are many poor people in Egypt, especially in Cairo and he was interested in finding ways to give them a better life or to organise the city in the space in a way and also social structure in a way that these people would do better actually.
And how did he feel the Government was dealing with those issues?
Well the Government was dealing with it terms of self-interest. I mean the Government was dealing it in terms of profit which was naturally the state profit in tourism which was very important. The Government was dealing with it also in terms of probably rather traditional neglect of the popular interests actually and so there was no… you couldn't see at that time an attempt of the Government to seriously solve these sorts of problems. They were just trying to relocate them and to make things better for their own income and Mohamed was very critical of this and this was actually linked to a strong critics of the Government in not really taking an interest in the own people's fate anyway but just in their own … interest in their own political career and in their financial enrichment and for this they would like just to cooperate with anybody and there was also naturally the link to critics of the Egyptian Government working out, cooperating directly with the US.
Can I ask you about that specifically then. Did he talk to you about a concern about how close the Egyptian Government had become in terms of their interests and the interests of the United States?
Yeah I mean we had several talks on that and it was not only on a political scale that he was arguing against this approach of the US Government's political and financial influence in general in Egypt, it was also on a cultural level actually that he was objecting this.
What do you mean on a cultural level?
I mean they work differently in Cairo then they do for instance in Washington and there were actually always conflicts of interest because there were also people that were Americanised in Cairo and these were probably the elites because they went to the American University in Cairo and Mohamed was very critical of these people because he felt that … he was pretty right about this that they were very much …Alienated actually …
Alienated from…
Alienated from the general Egyptian public because they were a very small group but they were very influential and they were actually strongly pro American and dependent on American financing and trying to live in America and coming back and there was this sort of…
…cultural imperialism sort of…
Yeah but this was not only like imperialism the way that… Egyptians who were working for this, you see I mean. Cultural imperialism is not that one side … was presented. There were always local elites whose interest it is to strengthen this influence. So he was critical of this and there was this other history of the politics of when already Egypt opened to a strongly western influence and they had a liberalisation of the markets and they went away from the most socialist economic approach … and he was also critical of this because he thought that this sort of market capitalism was not a good solution for a country, as Egypt has a very big population and poor population would not have the means to afford everything in the market could offer…
He was opposed to the adoption of a more free-market capitalist approach that Egypt had taken?
Well I mean no, he was opposed to it and he was also pointing to details of it. For instance they were producing….strawberries. They were producing strawberries on the Egyptian fields which were not produced for the Egyptian market and were exported to Europe for instance, while at the same time they would have to import food for their own people, like wheat from the US, which he considered absurd. You know there was the old country being used for producing high class luxury products for foreign markets and then they had to again import nutrition from other countries at a certain price again actually to nutrify their own population. It was completely absurd.
And he talked to you about this?
Yeah I mean we were discussing this as well. I mean at a certain point I could point to this problem and he was upset about it actually. He considered it grotesque to do something like that.
Why grotesque?
Yeah because you see it would be much more logical to cultivate wheat in your fields instead of cultivating strawberries there which nobody can afford in Egypt anyway…
At the time that you were there, well both the decade before that but during the time that you went to Egypt there was a very heavy crack down from the Egyptian Government on Islamic groups…
Was that something you talked about at all?
I only remember that we, I think we had a talk on that of which I do not remember many details. It was a very short [conversation] but apparently Mohamed had also talked before that with Volker Hauth about this problem while this thing was going on, and both Mohamed and Volker Hauth were very critical actually about this, because it was very rude military action they were taking. They were really storming different parts of the Cairo city in order to fight different extremist groups, which was a sort sort of street war going on… a crack down. There was lots of troops being involved and I mean this is something you can only find scary when this… and he was also critical of that naturally because I mean he was though in favour of extremist Islamic groups but he was pretty much against such a state action against people who are apparently working in favour of the interests of the people living in the streets so it was always a social conflict … you see because it was these people in these extremist groups in these quarters they were working they were also like taking care of the social needs of the people which the State did not cope with.
And that's the reason he thought it was wrong of the government to crack down on them because they were providing social services?
Yeah because they would not replace these services by anything, by any other services so they would just crack down on the organisations and that's it.
Did he strike you as a passionate person?
Well he was in a way yeah, he was passionate but at the same time he was very, he was calm so he was a serious and calm person but when he got upset about something he became passionate.
What made him most passionate?
Well at that time I remember there were two things made him passionate. One was actually the ongoing war in Yugoslavia, the Bosnian War especially which he considered a war actually of one population against the Muslim part of the population and he didn't understand why there was no help by the so called International community to prevent this murdering from going on, and this he was always linking to the war going on or the process going on in which he was very critical of because he considered it selling out of the interests of the Palestinian people as what had happened in Oslo. And he also links it to what had happened during the second Gulf War when the International lines attacked Saddam Hussein and which he was not in favour of Saddam Hussein. That was very clear because he considered Saddam Hussein also a politician but he was not in favour of his people in any way but he would not understand, he was very very angry about the fact that the international community would gather in order to attack Saddam Hussein but they would not gather in order to prevent the Israelis attacking Palestinians. They would not gather for any other problem as the one in Yugoslavia he was very afraid that there was a very strong bias in these politics and that these politics were always in the interests actually of the US and he was very critical of that, and I mean he also criticised the UN of being a sort of organisation which would always at the end of the day would only do what the US would ask for and not, never do anything against the US or against Israel.
When you said there were two things, was that the second thing?
Well the one thing was the US influence actually in the Middle East, the other thing was the Yugoslavian civil war and these were very hot topics he'd get upset about.
Did you think of him as a particularly religious person?
He was very religious as many others are in Cairo so he was particularly religious in terms of people I know and also of friends I use to have later on in Cairo though I had some more actually who were also as religious but not… in another way then so he was, he was very religious. He prayed five times a day and he used to listen to on the radio or on the cassette and but that was actually something very normal. I met many other people who were very similar to him then … then I met him in '94 he wasn't as religious as he had become in summer '95 already as far as I can observe it looking back.
What you felt he had changed just in that period of time he'd become more religious?
Yeah it had become more obvious, he would more show it towards the outside that he was religious.
How could you see that?
I mean firstly he had grown his beard by these days actually which later he apparently shaved again but as he came back he had grown a beard which we are more or less supposed to do …because you're not allowed to shave. He kept this beard for some months later on which is also quite, quite usual for these people to do and well he was so in this course, in how he talked about… religion to me, but this might not have been that he had become more religious, but maybe we just got to know each other better. So he started to talk with me more confidently on these matters actually and we had several discussions on religion because he had a very very conservative approach to Islam which is not unusual I mean considering what you are teached in the State school system in Egypt and he was always very shocked when… I was interested in Islam as one of many different cultures existing on the planet and I was also trying to compare phenomena in one religion and the other and he was always upset at certain things, which words I used actually which were not appropriate in the proper Islamic diction so I was not allowed to say it this way because then it would be wronged. It would be sinned if it would be this way. It was for instance when I said that it is interesting that you have ways of speaking, uttering only texts which if you look at [ceremonies like] in the Catholic Church when you have this way of pronouncing in a certain melody, and you have it in Judaism and prayer and you have it also in other religions and you have it in Islam… and when you read Koran you have a certain… I mean the way you read Koran, which is something like singing. Well I made the mistake to say singing and then he got really upset and because naturally singing is not allowed in his interpretation of… because music's something sinful in order to distract people from the right path and so …
So when you …
Singing would have been a sin already and you can't sing Koran and it was these things we were discussing and for him I was a sort of person he could confront because I was a sort of example …because I was a European, a German who had studied Middle Eastern studies and Islamic studies and so I was for him an example of somebody who approached another culture but did not really understand what was going on, because I said it in the wrong way and he always felt the urge to explain it how it was to be understood so I could understand his point of view but still scientifically it was not mine you see and so we never found a common ground on these.
Do you think that he resented the way that western culture for the most part does not understand Islam?
Yeah I mean that was one of his basic problems I think and that made things also very difficult for him in the long run to live in Hamburg because as religious and conservative in his religion as he was, it was difficult for him to communicate to other people who would not know enough actually about these issues and so there was a lack of of exchange I think and so he necessarily had to become more secluded on these issues I think when living in Hamburg and I think he was suffering from this because he felt really alienated…from his surrounding.
And do you think in a way, do you think he resented it and felt that the West doesn't make the effort to understand?
I mean he was very explicit about that, I mean they deliberately did not want to understand. That was his interpretation rather because it they had a certain interest, when there was a interest in the Middle East it was of political or financial interest and it was not about an equal or balanced exchange, so it was something like knowledge in order to gain power not knowledge in order to understand which was pretty close to imperial studies…. I mean, he was aware of this but he being very conservative and also a sort of essentialist from his side. This is what I was criticising on him because I realised that he was sometimes taking the constructs which were actually constructed by, for instance, Orientalists and was now saying that this was typical Islam whereas in the meantime it was much more critically viewed already in within scholarly approaches to Islamic studies because they had found out actually that … I mean it was only [the] picture they had constructed, and [they] had not considered all the different aspects that were there, so I was critical about his approach that he had this sort of moralistic approach to Islam. So Islam for him was one thing and not something with many different opportunities and options to act and to create culture.
What particular aspects of conservative Islam stood out for you in terms of that critique that you're saying you had of…
Well I mean for instance when we come back to the urban planning thing he was … of the idea of an Islamic city and also of an Islamic house which is a construct of Orientalists from the 19th and 20th century and he considered actually the ideal Islamic city to have things like like narrow dead end roads that have court yard houses and all this which you might find in one city, not find in another. You might even find it in all Islamic cities so you see if the question, if it's really Islamic or if it is a result of some much more complex cultural historical development.
But he wanted cities to be this idea of Islamic?
Yeah this was the idea of Islam and he even would have favoured to recreate these spaces so he was also in favour of these attempts in Saudi Arabia to build Islamic cities where they would have modern architecture but with courtyards and dead end roads so they would build new Islamic cities, which structurally and socially, naturally were not Islamic cities as old because Islamic cities were much more self organising then central so it was odd to do it this way.
And structurally now, it would be very difficult to achieve and not particularly good to live in.
Exactly I mean this for him was a task that could be solved by architects and by urban planners so naturally he knew that there were problems about this but it was something he was eager to work on. I mean this was one of his interests because he considered this city more appropriate for the people and for their daily life culture to live in.
Was there anything about your lifestyle that offended him?
No I mean he was he was very tolerant of this because he accepted that I was not an Egyptian nor a Muslim so I wasn't and he had nothing to complain about in general because in Egypt otherwise I behaved, I adopted to manners so there was no strong conflict actually. There were no proper critics actually of my behaviour.
Did you… I wasn't suggesting you'd done anything in particular by the way. There was nothing I was trying to suggest there but did you meet his family at all?
I think I met his family once because his father came to fetch us from the airport when we arrived but that's it. I didn't see them later on and Mohamed was living at his father's, at his family's place actually in Cairo and Volker Hauth and we had rented a flat in another part of Cairo so we just met during the day and the evenings for work but not …
So did you form any idea about their relationship or…
Within the family you mean? No I mean it appeared to be very unusual family structure… I mean he had left the family because he went to Germany so I think he wasn't that much any more like only the son of the family but he had become more independent by the time when he came back and lived with the family but I don't know any details about how this created problems or how the father's attitude was towards the son. I don't know.
In terms of his life what made him appear to you a conservative?
I mean he would follow all the duties that he had to follow as a believing Muslim concerning daily lives. He went to pray. He didn't drink alcohol and he wouldn't mess with women and I also realised that he was even criticising women … who were veiled for not wearing it properly because they wear it in a way that made them more beautiful instead of protecting them from male's eyes so he was, that was very conservative. This is where you could sense it especially in these sorts of criticisms he was saying about other people.
You were just saying those areas in which you felt that Mohamed was sort of obviously to you conservative and you were saying that sometimes it was about the way the women wore the Hijab. Was that when you were in Cairo?
We were in Cairo yes. I mean what would happen was, he would see women wearing a Hijab, and Volker Hauth and me for instance we would realise that it's looking good actually how they, how they do it. It's nice actually. It makes them beautiful. Then he was like saying yes, or he would criticise them because he was saying they would not wear the Hijab probably because they would choose certain colours which were too chic and they would like wear it or wind it in a way around their head that it would maybe make them even more attractive and so that was not the way it was supposed to be; or he would sometimes even say for himself. I mean not generally would he walk through the streets and point to people saying they wore the Hijab the wrong way but it was just close to the topic we were just talking about it was, he'd mention it or refer to it but …
So did he ever show any interest in women when you knew him?
I'm not informed about this thing anyway so I mean apparently there was a story that had been going on the year before, because sometimes Volker Hauth and then Mohamed were referring to it, talking about it but I have no idea, no details actually about it so.
This might be an inappropriate question but did you ever tease him about when he would say look, women shouldn't do that. Did you ever tease him and say, oh don't be such a conservative?
Well yeah, I mean naturally I would say like comments… exaggerate I mean they wear it as they want I mean as long as they are following the rules and he wouldn't agree…
Did you ever go to the engineer's syndicate?
Yeah. Sure because we had to meet some people there. I don't remember the names anymore.
Did you get a sense of the politics that were around?
Well I mean we talked about these politics naturally because the engineering syndicate was one of those that was increasingly being influenced by fundamentalist movements, I mean it was not only the engineer's one but several different ones as well were one of the political instruments the conservative or fundamentalists Muslims were using in order to increase their influence on state politics or on municipality because it was an organisation that was rather basic democratic, so people could bring people into places and pose where they wanted to be and it was not centrally controlled, but there was as far as I remember lots of critics about these processes going on by that time. There were people that were very critical about this change of politics within the syndicate because there were actually also many other people, engineers within the syndicates who did not like the syndicate to be instrumentalised for such a political direction.
And what did Mohamed think about it?
Oh no Mohamed was in favour of this idea. I mean in favour of this change.
The increasing Islamisation of the syndicate?
Yeah he was in favour of that because he was in favour of having a larger, a better lobby for Islamic social ideas and these things, so for him this was one of the necessary and important means to achieve this goal.
So do you think they were an important influence in terms of his developing ideas…The political ideas that were focused in the syndicate?
Well I'm not sure you know that he was linked up to the syndicate in a closer way because he had studied and then he left Egypt so generally you only get in contact with the syndicate after you have finished studies, and you start working and since he hadn't worked at least not for a long time there was probably no real possibility for the syndicate influencing his views. He might still have received or read something about them, because it was always in the newspapers because there was this discussion going on, on this process and so there were comments and interviews with people who were in favour of this and who were discussing the ideas actually that were behind it, so he knew what it was about and actually he was, he thinking about this and so there might have been influence, because he read about it and heard about it, but no direct personal influence of certain people within the syndicate I don't…
Do you remember going, do you remember any conversations or meeting any people who were from that Islamic group when you went? Do you remember what was talked about or anything about going to …
No there was, there was nothing from this. I mean and all the organisations or planning offices we went to h had no link to such an approach so I never observed that kind of conversation.
When you went back to Hamburg after the trip to Cairo did you keep in touch?
Well we kept in touch for a while because we still had to finalise our research results so I mean I stayed longer in Egypt, then I stayed for six months, even more so I came back only in early Spring '96 to Germany and we met up in Hamburg then for a weekend in order to discuss what we had already written and to coordinate what still had to be written and afterwards I only had for a certain while indirect contact because Volker Hauth was sometimes telling me about what Mohamed was doing but also Volker Hauth lost contact at that time to Mohamed. So I had contact with Mohamed after Spring of '96.
Did Volker Hauth tell you about how he was getting on or whether or not he seemed to be getting more …
No he remarked one time that he was now working for a company in Hamburg and that he was still studying and working … and these things you know. Volker Hauth didn't see him much either anymore so … even Volker Hauth couldn't tell me about him.
And do you think that was a sign of anything the fact that not even Volker Hauth was seeing him anymore or…
No I didn't take it as a sign no. I mean I don't know. I mean by then I naturally didn't take it for any sign when I mean it was just… I mean I couldn't be a good friend of his because we simply didn't find lots of common ground. So I mean I found him a nice person and when we met I mean I could deal with him and it was OK and I also enjoyed it but a as I was not living in Hamburg I mean I didn't think about continuing a long term friendship.
And not enough common ground anyway?
Yeah.
Because…
Well because we had such different ideas about aspects of religion and culture so … that was actually made it difficult but politically I mean we sometimes shared the same ideas so it was… and he being critical of certain political processes in Egypt and the Middle East and it was like we were disagreeing on some and then agreeing on some so it was …
Did he ever talk to you about what he wanted to be? What he wanted to go on and become?
Yeah naturally, I mean he wanted to work as an architect and city planner in Cairo and he was very serious about it and hoped actually to be able to improve the situation and to find a place in the system where he would be able to influence the situation. Which naturally is not easy if you look at the structures which are pretty much controlled by …nepotism and so …
Did he feel that? That it would be hard?
Yeah I mean we talked about this problem also during our stay in Cairo. I mean he was aware of it before, and he got even more aware of it when we were there again and so I think in a way he was still hopeful. He still wished and hoped that he might find such work in Cairo but he was sceptical about the possibility of really changing things in Egypt and finding good and sensible work.
Because of…
Well because if you are critical of certain persons or certain political circumstances, if you don't know this and that person you will never get this sort of job that's why.
It's an obvious question but I want to ask I mean what did you feel when you opened the newspaper and saw his name.
I certainly wouldn't believe it. I mean I saw his picture in the newspaper. This is actually how it started, yes so we had this newspaper on our table and I looked at it. It was early in the evening and I seen this photo of a person on the title page and I was stunned because I thought, I know this person so I looked at it closely, it really looked like Mohamed El-Amir so I looked under the photo what was written there and it said it was a person Mohamed Atta who was supposed to have been the pilot of the first plane to crash into the World Trade Centre but there was no more information about this, and I didn't believe that it was him. I just thought maybe they made a mistake and they got this photo from somewhere or they took him for another person who apparently was linked to it or so I was looking for different explanations for how come this person I knew and which I would never expected to do such a thing could now be linked to this attack.
What happened then was that an hour later I got a phone call from Volker Hauth in Hamburg who had found out my telephone number via my parents and because we hadn't been in contact anymore since 98; and the moment that he called me I already knew what it was about because I mean there could be only one reason why Volker Hauth would now call me, and then I tried to find out when he was telling me that he had already contacted the police because he knew the person but he was also convinced that it couldn't have been him actually. He wanted to be in contact with the police in order to deliver proof that Mohamed is not the sort of person who would do a suicide attack and such a murder, and well this is how it started and I mean it took me quite a while because I was still also very sceptical about the whole idea of you know only Arab names listed as suspects actually…it was too outspoken.
The reaction was too outspokenly anti-Arab from the beginning. I mean from everything you would observe from the outside, you would not have the inside information and know the signs were clear enough, but this was also the reaction which was going around here. Maybe funny to say that everybody, all of my friends here they all, even people in the street I mean they were, many of them were really shocked, they wouldn't believe what was going on. There was only very few people who were like saying, I mean they hit the Pentagon and…very scared of what would happened afterwards because nobody knew actually who did it and then when the question, the question was obvious who did it and they all said it couldn't have been Arabs, never; because they wouldn't have the financial means, they wouldn't have the skills and…People wouldn't just believe that this was done by Arabs. Everybody hoped it was not the Arabs …because it would just make the situation worse and they all hoped, there were all these ideas that it was the Japanese Red Army who did it as a revenge for Pearl Harbour attack and these so everybody was constructing different solutions. All that it has been Osama who was behind it because I mean who would profit from this at all, and so people [found it very difficult] to believe what had been going on there.
And for you?
For me it was similar in a way, although I mean everything is speculation. We simply do not know what happened though, and from what happened then and how quickly actually research was focused on a certain group of Arab passengers in the plane I also found, I had this sense that there was interest behind it actually to focus on these sort of people and there was at least from what you observed from the press you had the, you got the impression that everybody was hoping in the US that it was the Arabs or the Muslims; whereas I and many other people here that would say that maybe it was an inner American thing because we all thought of Oklahoma I mean you know one of the biggest bombing was in the US was done by a US citizen and he had nothing to do with Islam so that was one of the very probable solutions that anybody had for the question like who was it? And then it was just like following what was going on and I started having these phone calls from journalists from places all over the world but …
What do you think now though? I mean have you in a sense come to terms with the fact that maybe the Mohamed that you knew did fly this plane?
Well I think it's difficult to really come to terms with it because the Mohamed I knew would not have done it so he must have changed a lot afterwards and I have no idea because I had no contact with him, what happened to him and when exactly and …
Do you think about that? What must have happened?
Yeah, naturally I think about it but I can't know. I mean I can't figure it out although from how I knew him, you know the only thing that I believe would have made him do such a thing would have been political reasons and not religious, because from a religious stand he was a very humanist person but he got really upset and extreme in his judgments when it came to politics and so I think it must have been something political rather, and maybe I think Robert Fisk actually he wrote an article these days in which he linked up and he made a very good remark which was that after Mohamed apparently wrote this testament of his, his last will was apparently written in April '96, exactly the month of the massacre when the Israelis bombed the UN Refugee camp in Southern Lebanon and several hundred civilians had died and there was no big published negative response to it. I mean Israel was like … don't do this again but nothing more happened. You can understand somebody being upset about this you know there might be a link really because…
The timing is such that… you believe there could have been a link. No one can prove it but…
The timing is such.
But you believe there could have been a link.
We can't prove it now anymore, because I mean who would tell us.
What did you think when you read the will?
Well I didn't read the will completely, but I found it odd. I mean I didn't understand it really. I mean some of the things were the usual and others were really a little bit weird but I do not know the details.
It just seemed strange to write it so early…
That is what surprised me you see. I mean it was when he wrote it in Spring 96, because that was still the time when I knew him or at least when I just had got out of contact with him and by that time you know he didn't appear to me as such a person who might feel the urge to write his last Will and this sort of last Will …I would have thought the thing to take much more time, to have been taken place later, so I was really surprised when they said that the last Will was written in '96.
As far as you know, was he ever a member of any Islamic Group?
Oh I have no idea. I don't know. I can't say. I mean he never talked about being a member of a group and I didn't observe him meeting people or going to the same places, or there was no hint of this actually. I mean he had like this this naturally this ex pat group in Hamburg he was, he was praying with which is a very normal thing for Muslim ex pats living in other countries because they have to join to pray, so I mean … has to be has to be done in a group and not alone, so this is why it is necessary for them to form a group to do it actually.
Was there ever anything about the decadence that there is in a city like Hamburg that you felt Mohamed ever expressed to you, sort of offended by the decadence of the West as exhibited in Hamburg or anywhere?
No I don't remember that he referred directly to such a thing. I mean it was rather indirectly of how he would expect a proper Muslim women to behave that maybe you could sense the critic towards, towards western ways of dressing maybe, of behaviour which he even would have, like in Egypt against women who were not wearing Hijab or wearing or carrying clothes like jeans or t-shirts - this was actually what he was referring to. I mean I only spent one weekend in Hamburg when I met him so I think because his critics were often not very much context related so he would not tell us about his critics, about life in Hamburg when we were in anther place. There was nothing like that. He maybe did but just didn't mention it to me.
So you don't remember times when he would talk an American movie or an American style of food?
No, no no there was nothing like that actually. I mean it was, he was not that anti whatever western in that way I mean … it was rather a thing of live and let live approach maybe that was behind it.
One of the extraordinary things about all of them was that they were able to do this, plan this for a number of years… Do you think he had that capacity to be able to lead a separate life?
Yeah I mean on the one hand… I mean there are like two questions. I considered him able to organise and to plan such a thing. I mean not because it is a crime but because he was good at organising and he was also a person who could lead other people so he could be a leader type of guy and take decisions and be [good] in organising things. The second part of the question is, could he do this in a secret part of life, which apparently he did. I don't… so he was able to do it, which you couldn't know before exactly because he was able to do it so…
How does that make you feel about you, you knew him.
Yeah I mean I ask myself, naturally if he was already this sort of person who would have done this, when I knew him or not but as far as I knew him then, he was not the kind of person, so this is why I say there should have been this change going on with him but it was surprisingly early as you said, that he already wrote this last Will in early '96; so there I naturally question myself, if he was already thinking about this things or planning something already or meeting people early on, but then he managed to do this without anybody of us remarking and it leads me to the question like how far can you know a person at all? It's if you think you know him already and you can judge in general his his kind of personality but I never had the impression by that time that he had a certain path or second or secret life.
At the other end naturally I didn't grasp the whole of his life which is very normal because I was new to the Egyptian contacts then; I mean there were many things strange to me or things that I had to get to know or understand and to learn what they meant and so I'm probably the wrong person to ask if he had a sort of life which I would not know about or understand. I mean this question could only be answered by a person from his surroundings, from his Egyptian surroundings, which would know how people would act in a normal way. Or if he had something which was conspicuous or…
But it does make you ask yourself how well can you ever know somebody?
Yeah actually it's not that I'm really suffering from this question because I still think that Mohamed … that I had understood or known him quite well or to an extent so I think I mean it's probably that he changed later on.
do you feel that in some ways you can understand, or speculate about the unhappiness that must have led someone to the despairing view of the world that you'd have to do something like that?
Well I don't think it was in isolation, if he was that isolated. I think I mean he was naturally able to communicate with people on a more daily level because he was working in this company in Hamburg and it was not that he was completely isolating himself there. So he was also doing things on his own and he was going to pray and he would not enter into religious discussions with people because naturally he would feel completely alone because he would be the only person having this [sort] of idea about his religion, and generally it's difficult to discuss issues of especially Islam and Islamic religion in Germany for instance or any western country because there are so many prejudices and before you can start to make people really understand what it is about, you're running into so many prejudices and people just won't stop actually believing the prejudices more than what you say.
So it is a very very difficult situation and it gets even more difficult when you are a religious person and I think this is why he surely wouldn't really talk about religion, which was apparently an important part of his life. He had a very 'disconservative' stand which was growing apparently more extreme, actually was isolating this, and he might have looked for other people he could share something with, but still, this way of isolation will not give a reason at least which I can understand, [why he would take such an action]. That would rather facilitate the impossibilities of planning it, but it would not be the reason for it.
Basically it speaks of frustrated rage.
Yes it's frustrated rage and frustration coming from very different origins, for very different reasons actually and I mean this is the only explanation I have for this. And as I said I could sense this sort of frustration and rage especially in in his political critics about what was going on in the world especially in the bias politics against Muslims, as he would have regarded it. We had these discussions also I remember once, that we talked about the role of the UN in the Iraq conflict and in Czechoslovakia and he was very [ ] in his criticism against the UN that it was outspokenly anti Islamic… interesting actually that somebody would consider the UN politics outspoken and anti Islamic, I tried to make him understand that it might appear, the politics might appear anti Islamic because they are guided by other interests, by countries which are not Islamic and so they just follow their interests and that the way to see it as something outspokenly anti Islamic is just the effect of somebody who was victimised by it and who feels that this is directed against him but it's just directed against nobody in particular. It's just in favour of their own interests but not against somebody and so I tried to convince him that he was taking actually the Islamic aspect as too important in this political game because it was not anti Islamic politics but it was if at all a pro American or pro capitalist country politic.
Could he see that?
Then third world countries, which in this part of the world happen to be Muslim countries fall victim too and this is the thing. I mean but no he didn't really see that.
He couldn't, didn't want to, couldn't...
Well I mean he saw my point and he was thinking about it, but he still was believing that there was something in what he had said or that there was actually these anti Islamic motives behind certain politics of the UN and the US.
That the UN was specifically anti Islamic?
Yeah. Not in everything they did but they were doing things which apparently were anti Islamic.
Rather than just pro western you mean?
Yeah, but this brings me to another sort of what I observed in the last weeks because in everything you could read in the newspapers and many things that you would hear on the radio would always see people looking for the motivations of what Mohamed did in his religion and everybody was trying to pin it down on the fact that they were Muslims doing this and I think this is completely off the track because these people did not do this because they were Muslims. The way probably they argued it or they were defending their motivations they were using, they were doing it within the Muslin discourse because this is the context they are referring to but the motivations, the reasons for it are not the religion is nothing which forces them to do something like this. To the contrary you would find the majority saying you know, you are forbidden to do this because they were innocent people killed and this is something which his not allowed especially from the [Islamic] point of view so it is political actually, in that it's political action and political motivation behind it and this can not be used to the fact you know that Islam has something about it which makes somebody a killer in a certain point of time; but it is rather like that world political structure has something about it which makes some people become killers at a certain point of time out of frustration. I think this is much more the point we have to look for if you ask why is a person like Mohamed Atta did something like this.
Volker Hauth Interview
Hamburg, Thursday 18 October, 2001
source: Four Corners, Monday 12 November, 2001 ABC TV
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/atta/interviews/hauth.htm
Liz Jackson interviews Volker Hauth, who knew Atta well during the years he studied in Hamburg, and accompanied him on several trips to the Middle East.
…Now the government tried to convert this very lively road to a pedestrian zone and they tried to push out the local population. They were obliged to live in one of the new cities which are built in Egypt. Our opinion was that these plannings were not the right way to take care of the specific structure you may find in the inner city of Cairo but it was quite difficult to tell this opinion openly.
Mohamed told us it may cause problems for him if we showed our professional opinions to open cause he wanted to, after studying in Germany, he wanted to return to Egypt and he wanted to work in Egypt and in Arabia. He always was, that was my impression, after what he said, he was always in danger of being criminalised. He was member of the syndicate of the engineers and as he told me, I asked him about fundamentalism and Islamism and he told me about the Muslim Brotherhood that many members of the syndicate of advocates and of engineers are members of the Muslim Brotherhoods.
He was no member of the brotherhood but by this I got the impression that the members of the brotherhood do not stand aside of the society they are more part of the intelligency of the population and Egyptian President or the Egyptian government tried to give the impression that all members of the Muslim Brotherhood are criminals and are people of less education or of mean education and like Mohamed Atta how he called Mohamed Al-Amir told me the opposite was real, was true…
And when you say he was concerned that he would be criminalised, why was that?
He told me about the daily practice of the government to criminalize people of a said opinion. Egyptian and especially the Egyptian President, Mubarak tries to give the impression that Egyptian is a democracy, is a free democratic country in the western sense of democracy and freedom but Mohamed told me that it was not possible to give or to tell open oppositional opinion. Most governors or most presidents of Egypt have belonged to the army before and from my own experience in the army, I have the impression people coming from the army have a look of black and white. There is nothing between. You have friends or you have enemies and in Egypt you either may have the same opinion like the government or you are an enemy of the government. The real opposition like you have in the democracies of the western states or in the western world, you can't find in Egypt. There is no real opposition and…I did not get the impression that these are true elections in a democratic sense.
Was Mohamed a member of the engineer's syndicate?
Yes, he was a member of the engineer syndicate. In Germany I am a member of the engineer's syndicate also. It's necessary to be allowed to work as architect, you have to be a member of the syndicate, even also in Germany like in Egypt. But he told me he was no member of the Muslim Brotherhood.
But he told you that he thought that there were particular problems for the Muslim Brotherhood in the syndicate or that they were an important part of the syndicate…
No. Members of the syndicate, or many members of the syndicates were members of the brotherhoods and most seemed from the opposite, most members Muslim Brotherhood were members of the syndicate of lawyers or advocates and engineers.
Did he talk to you about the crackdown that there was on the Islamists and particularly on the Muslim brotherhoods in those syndicates?
The manner, the Egyptian government used the expression fundamentalist, Mohamed told me was very superficial and schematic attempt to criminalise all people with opposite opinions.
Did he say that particularly within the Engineer's Syndicate, within the profession that he wanted to work?
No, no. This attempt to criminalize people was not concentrated on one of the syndicates, he told me it was a general problem of the Egyptian government to push away all people with opposite opinions and Mohamed was a very well educated person and he was a religious person and both people with religious orientation and people with a very high education all around the world may have opposite opinions than the government of the country they live in and by this he was in danger of being criminalised. Only by having a different opinion. This was my impression of what Mohamed told me.
And when you say a religious person, what do you mean?
I did not have the impression of being fanatic but it was a very strict religious orientation. He had his prayer five times a day and he practiced Ramadan. I don't know if he had taken part at the Haj, if he travelled to Mecca, he didn't tell me. But I didn't get the impression of being fanatic. He was very strict but not fanatic. You may know Muslims do not have any sense of humour concerning religion in the Christian religion, there is a special sense of humour concerning religion if you know Monte Python or attempts like this to have a new view on religion, in the Islamic religion, this is not possible.
Do you think he did have a sense of humour generally?
He had a sense of humour, yes we joked about governments, the Syrian government and we travelled together to Syria a year before and we joked about this. It was possible to laugh about, especially about politics.
Can you remember the first time that you met Mohamed?
Yes we met in a seminar about planning and building in development countries at the University and Mohamed was very interesting person for me cause I've been in Egypt and Palestine two times before and this was a good opportunity to get more informations and to get better impressions of this country I have travelled before. We began to work together at the end of 1994 and we prepared a journey to Syria to Aleppo where we studied life and structure of the old city of Aleppo. A very characteristic old city. It's comparable only with the old city of Cairo and these were the main interest of Mohamed, the traditional structure and the daily life, the mixture of traditional structure and actual daily life in these old Islamic inner cities of Aleppo and of Cairo because he was interested in the specific structure of these old cities. In former times, there was no separation of political and religious life in Arabia. In the western world, we have the separation of the political life on the one side and the religion on the other side and in former times, also in Europe, but in former times in Arabia, this was some kind of unity, Mohamed told me and these old cities and these Islamic old cities you get a very lively impression how the daily life may have been from the time. This was the main interest of Mohamed. He studied the German language with very much discipline and he spoke very fine or his knowledge of German language was excellent. I do not remember any specific hobbies but I think to have hobbies is a special quality of western life and it's a special quality of rich and handsome western life. In Arabian countries young people meet but do not have time and they do not have money for practicing hobbies like you have in the western world. The daily life is much more working or meeting friends and sitting together. It's not playing tennis or playing golf. That's part of the life of the so-called fat cats in the Egyptian population or young population you have different groups and the group with the highest income, are the so-called fat cats, these are families with narrow relations to the government. It's astonishing that people or persons belonging to the government in Egypt are also leaders or managers of national companies.
What did Mohamed feel about what you're calling the fat cats?
He told me about different groups of the population of Egypt beginning with the Infitah, Infitah means the opening of the Egyptian politics, to the western world. President Sadat began with this policy to open the economy to the western world and in this time a few families, especially families or clans increased their income and these families with the close contacts to the government of the so-called fat cats income of these families is absolutely incomparable to the income of, for example, of academics. If you know that in that a teacher of a high school earns about 350 German marks a month that are about 175 US dollars and other persons in Egypt may afford new Mercedes cars, there's a gap between the academic world and the world of the persons working in the industry or leading managing companies… the income of the poor people is incomparable maybe 50 dollar dollars a month or 100 dollars a month.
What did Mohamed feel or say to you about that gap between the rich and the poor?
He was not happy about the injust or unfair way of living and of distribution of a wellness and income. His idea was to have income for anybody to have the opportunity to survive with health and good education but many are a big part of the Egyptian population can't take part in the daily life of the better off and many people do not have the opportunity to give a good o education to their children. Many children have to work because they do not earn enough money and the interest of Mohamed and his professional work was to increase the circumstances of the poor people. This was my impression…. His first study was architecture and for architects all around the world, it's possible to make much money if you work for the better off but architecture is not only a technical science, it's also a social science and for this Mohamed continued his first study with studying urbanism and town planning because of his interest of social life.
Living here in Hamburg, he obviously experienced a western style of living, saw it directly. Did he ever talk to you about how he felt about a more western style of living, what he thought about that?
I do not remember exactly what he told me. He didn't take part in many affairs of the western world. He made some sports but most of the time he studied and he was in contact with Arabian friends. It was a strange world for him, a strange language. Strange daily life for a religious orientated person. Most of Germans are not used to pray and daily… I don't think he had many relationships to the German or to the western world. He studied the western world and he studied the policy, the democratic practices.
Do you think anything that the western world had to offer or has to offer appealed to him?
Yes I get the impression that he was interested in the German way. I don't know about his opinions of the American life, but that he was interested in the German way, the German attempt to spread or to distribute prosperity or to reach prosperity for all members of the community. For all parts of the population. That's an old principle… of the Muslim world that anybody may take part in the daily life that anybody has enough to survive that anybody has the opportunity to get educated. It's an idea of the Muslim or of the Islamic world.
I guess I also meant, did anything of the more hedonistic things that the western world has to offer appeal to him?
He was not interested in this I think. He was not interested in cars or in, no I don't remember this…
I mean movies, nightclubs
No, nothing at all.
Girls? Any of the things that the west, the freedoms that, a personal lifestyle that the west offers attractive.
I think freedom and the possibility to tell your opinion openly was of great interest for him or it was of big interest for him but all these good of the western world like you told me cars, girls, motor cycles, or things like that, he was not interested in.
Television, movies?
I don't know if he had a TV set. No I don't think so and I don't remember him going to the movie.
Ever?
Can't remember.
Music?
We spoke about music cause I'm interested in music and I like playing music and he told me for Muslims it is not allowed to listen to music or to enjoy music in the way people from the western world enjoy music because of the impact of music. If you have a look to the young people dancing, very loud music, the impact is comparable to the impact of drugs and this is not allowed to Muslims.
And what did he think that that music might make them do or feel?
It may have the impact of a sedative or the opposite impact of … stimulants and the stimulation of Muslim or other the root and the base of the stimulation of the Muslim is the belief.
It sounds such a strict way to live.
Yes. He lived in a much more strict way than person from the western world, that's right. But that doesn't mean that he couldn't enjoy anything. He enjoyed sweets or he enjoyed laughing, walking around meeting friends, meeting, being in company with friends. That's one of the joys of Arabian people. Arabs do not like to be alone like western people.
Did you meet many of his friends here?
We met some of his friends on the street and he told me this is so and so and we shook hands and changed some words but I do not remember or any of his friends. Also in Egypt we met some friends on the street but we did not get in close contact with his friends.
Did you feel close to him?
Yes.
What do you think was the bond, what was it that made you feel close to him?
My religious orientation is not as strict as his orientation, his religious orientation was but I think the interest in religious ideas, my interest in religious ideas was some kind of bridge to his religious opinions and to his religious practice. People with strict religious practices and religious orientation, a traditional religious orientation is quite difficult to get in contact with people who do not have an idea of religion and many of the other students did not have an idea of religion.
And that was a bond between you?
Yes. I think so.
How long did you know him for?
We met in 1993 and the last time I met him was about 1996 or 1997.
Can you remember the last time that you saw him?
We met in the street or in the bus, some kind like that and spoke only shortly. We hadn't seen for some month and I didn't get the impression of a change or something like that.
But what happened, how come you didn't see him again?
My study finished and in Germany when a student's work, they study and they work and the same time and in the later semesters if you're near to the diploma you do not go to the University daily….Some of the students go to the university only once a week or two weeks and then I change my flight, first I lived in Hamburg and then I changed to the northern part of Hamburg and by this we didn't meet like we met before.
Were you surprised that you had no contact at all? I am curious because you were close and he was still here till the year 2000… you seemed to have some sort of bond and good strong discussions about religion and politics so that's why I ask, it just seemed like, to suddenly end … perhaps you might have been a big loss for him in terms of someone that he could relate to.
Maybe. It was not a sudden loss….We worked together until 1996 but we worked not very closely. We had to write a report about the time in Cairo but we did not meet as often as before because we both had to work and by this our ways went aside…
Was there a period of time in which over a period of time, did you think that he changed in the kind of person he was from when you first met him?
When I first met him about 1993, he did not wear a beard, and in about 1995, end of 1994, suddenly he had a beard and I also have a beard and by this I asked him what about your beard and he told me all people wearing a beard in Egypt are thought to be fundamentalists and due to this in solidarity with all people criminalised in Egypt now. He wanted to wear a beard also. He didn't want to hide his personal opinions, religious people have a beard in Egypt and if you do not want to be criminalised or if you don't want to have problems, you can't your beard but Mohamed told me … he wanted to show his opinions freely, openly and he didn't want to hide his opinions. That was one of the qualities I liked and I didn't get the impression of Mohamed being a sleeper, a so-called sleeper. In the years I met and I knew him he was not, or he didn't act like a sleeper. He showed his opinions openly, we spoke about politics, we spoke about the western world. He showed his scepticism about the western world, we spoke about Israel and the Israel politics and also here he showed openly his scepticism and his critique and I did not get the impression of Mohamed trying to hide anything.
When you say his scepticism about the western world, what do you mean by that?
There was one example I don't remember the year exactly but once a western nation, I'm not sure if this was America or European nation, sent a ship with rubbish to Egypt and Mohamed told me he didn't like this. That the rich western nations exported their rubbish to the poor Arabian nations. This was one example of critique and I think the critique was just and fair. We spoke about the politics of Israel and the USA or the symbiotic relationship of Israel and the USA and he was very unhappy not to be allowed to visit Jerusalem. For a Muslim Jerusalem is one of the holy places and as Egypt he was not allowed to visit this holy place and he was quite unhappy about this cause I told him I have been there twice.
Did he feel strongly about the Palestinian issue?
I asked him about the problem, it was not him talking about it and he was not happy about the politics of Arafat he did not like the attempt to find a way or the attempts Arafat made cause he had the impression that Arafat gave away too much.
He thought Arafat compromised too much?
Yes. That was his impression, that's also my impression.
So he was in a sense more hardline than Arafat?
I won't call him a hardliner
I thought I might have used the wrong word. Do you think he was a person who liked a compromise?
Yes, that was one of his main qualities to find compromise, to communicate. I have got one image if the right door is closed, he tried to use the left door. There's no way on the right side, you have to take the left side to reach the target and I travelled with him in Syria and in Egypt and I got the impression that his capability of communicate with different people was extremely good.
At some point when he was in Hamburg, something must have happened, do you take that view and if so is there anything now that points to you about when that was?
Being asked of any or for any explanations of what happened in New York, and the first moment I thought of the visit of Ariel Sharon visiting the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. By this he threatened a holy place of the Islamic world and threatening or damaging a holy place is a sacrilege and it may have been answered by threatening and damaging the holy place of the western world and from the view of an Arab, from the view of a Muslim, the World Trade Centre in New York is a holy place for the western world and this may be or this may show an interrelationship and this visit of Ariel Sharon giving fire to the oil or burning the oil may have been the last drop, the water overflowing.
Did Mohamed ever talk to you about what he really wanted to do, like what were his dreams?
Yes he told me he wanted to work for an international organisation of corporation and development because in being member of an international organisation, he wouldn't have been in danger of being imprisoned, he wanted to work in Egypt, he wanted to work in Arabia as a planner, as an urbanist, but he wanted to be saved of being criminalised. And this was his dream to work in Egypt.
He had a real fear that he would be put in prison for his religious strengths?
No it was not the fear of being imprisoned but it was a fear not be allowed to say what he meant and for well educated person, it's some kind of torture not to be allowed to tell what your confessions are. You know about the so-called inner exodus, many persons living in a country with a very restrictive political systems, live in the so-called inner exodus, they don't tell what they think but they can't make him happy any day than Mohamed wanted to live in Egypt, he wanted to live in Arabia and he wanted to become happy. And not being allowed telling or showing the inner opinions, not having the opportunity to show the professional knowledge he had would be some kind of torture.
Did he think that he would ever be able to realise and do what he wanted to do, did he ever talk about his fear of not being able to realise and do what he wanted to do?
No he didn't tell this.
Being frustrated?
I got the impression of depression that I think that's a special quality of many academics or of the intelligentsia of Egypt.
When you say depression, what, what was it about to him that made you say that?
The problem of the academic world in Egypt and the problem of Mohamed was that in Egypt it causes problems to show your confessions, to show your knowledge, your professional knowledge openly. In Egypt I get the impression that many academic people or people of academic education are very depressed and in Egypt you have an exodus of academics. Many academics of Egypt would like to leave the country to work in other countries to have a job and to work concerning to their beliefs and to their knowledge and not always thinking of what hasn't the government told us and what have I tell now not to get in conflict with the government or the police.
So it was a general thing rather than a feeling that he was, was there anything about his manner that made you feel he was depressed, frustrated, angry?
I don't think it was special quality of or a symptom of Mohamed, it was a general problem of Egypt that people were not like that it causes problems to show knowledge and confessions of ….
Did you meet his family when you were there?
We met the father at the airport. He took us to the flat where my German colleague and I lived and we met two aunts in Kafir el-Sheikh where Mohamed comes from but I didn't meet the mother and the sister.
Some people have said to us that it was a very high achieving family and that his father had big expectations of Mohamed. Did you ever have that impression, did he ever talk to you about having in some sense to live up to his father's expectations?
No, we didn't talk about this. His father had different profession and professional prospective of advocates and architects or planners are incomparable.
I want to ask you about something, I'm sure you've been asked about it many times, in terms of any interest that he had in women, I understand there was one time when you were with him in Aleppo, can you tell us about that time?
No, I don't want to repeat this.
Because you don't think it's true or…?
No. It's of few words, it was lean mean, mean value. He wanted to have a family, I get the impression and he did not have a girlfriend, but he told me, I asked him about a girlfriend and he told me in Egypt his family and the family of a young lady, thought of starting a relation…but and I told him about a relationship, about being married and he told me it was not yet time to get married….His interest was to study and to finish his studies first and then to have a family. I get the impression he wanted to have a family.
And in the meantime he thought that having girlfriends was not appropriate?
No in Arabia the life of young people is totally different from the life of young persons or young people in the western world, it's not that the way like young men and young ladies or young women, the western world may meet in a café or stayed together for a night or so in Egypt it's more strict. You are not allowed to meet a girl you're not married with and the religious orientated families and by this Mohamed had no idea of having a girlfriend.
There was no idea of getting in contact with a young girl or a young lady in the western sense.
When it became more and more apparent that it was in fact Mohamed who had flown the plane into the World Trade Centre, what did you think must have happened to the Mohamed that you knew?
For a long time I couldn't imagine that Mohamed had taken part in this terroristic act and also now I didn't find a reason, an exact reason, you can't find any exact reason for what happened but there are no clear hints which may lead to this what happened. His personal bitterness and depression are no sufficient hints for this act. There are no hints or you may try to have an explanation but I couldn't find a sufficient explanation for what happened and for Mohamed taking part in this act even.
Did he ever talk to you about America?
Maybe, I couldn't remember a specific situation talking about Americans, he didn't show any fanaticism against America, his critique and his scepticism was orientated against the separation of the Egyptian population which means that the western style of living gets in contact or confrontates with the traditional way of living but that's an inner Egyptian problem or he gave the impression that he was interested in the Egyptian life, the daily life and the threatening of the traditional life by western ideas.
So you felt that in some sense the west was invading culturally invading or taking over the Islamic way of life?
Yes. That's daily life in Egypt.
Did he speak to you about that?
We spoke about that, yes. The industrial nations do not only export cars or tanks or things like that, they do not only export rubbish, they also export their way of living. It's quite opposite to the traditional way of living in an Islamic country or is in an Arab country.
And do you think Mohamed resented that?
Mohamed was not very happy of this cause the western kind of living and the traditional way of living, there is no co-existence, it's a confrontation in Egypt. If you tried to live in the traditional way you get problems. You get many points and you will be confrontated. If you built houses in the traditional way, you touch the interests of the industry who tries to sell the western products of modern building and you will find many examples of confrontation of the traditional way of living on the way side and the western way of living on the other side. And these are not only problems of religion, these are also problems of technique and problems of money. If you try to find solutions, therefore daily life, if you try to find cheap techniques for daily life of the bigger part of the population, you threaten the interest of companies, of western companies to sell expensive techniques, for example air condition or things like that.
And did he talk to you about things like that?
Yes we spoke about this because planning towns, planning houses means to discriminate between modern technique and old technique. You have to think about costs and the modern technique is much more expensive and many are a big part of the Egyptian population can't afford the western techniques and by this big part of the Egyptian population can't take part at the daily life.
What do you think when people just say anybody who did that must just be mad, must be a psychopath?
I think that's right. You can't find intellectual explanation for what happened. You can find an explanation for depression and you can find an explanation for bitterness and sadness but you can't find an intellectual explanation for this terroristic act, something in the mind must have changed totally that any intellectual thought has been switched off. That's my opinion.
So that must be what happened.
I think so. It's a psychological problem or individual psychological problem led to a very narrow view of the world. May have led to a very narrow view of the world which has come closer or which may have been focussed on an attempt to solve problems by such terroristic acts.
He never talked to you about people resorting to violence, he never discussed with you terrorism?
No, Mohamed was a very peaceful person searching for justice and I didn't ever get the impression that violence was a manner of or was a medium of reaching targets.
But he never referred to other acts, mean of say Palestinians suicide?
No, and by this I couldn't imagine that he took part this terroristic act.
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